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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Proposed/Suggested Changes to Sun Dragons Corona « previous next »
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Author Topic: Proposed/Suggested Changes to Sun Dragons Corona  (Read 2620 times)
Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 10:15:11 PM »

Strike through is already in the game.  Mobs in APW use it. 

Basicly strikethrough ignores mitigation and hits for a set amount of dmg.  Granted in APW mobs with strikthrough also scale their dmg based on max mit but thats a different story.

Personally if it was up to me, to design a strike through buff for dragon monks.

Sundragons corona 1 (lvl40) --Grants the monk strikethrough. You will ignore the mobs mitigation and hit with the full force of a sun dragon.

As for the duration id have to see its parses and see if it should be 1 min on 5 min reuse, or a perm buff like diamond skin. 

Naturally id prefer a perm. buff like diamond skin that maybe adds 50% strikethrough at 40 and 75% strikethrough at 50.  Be something unique to dragon monks and for the most part would give us a niche as well as some dps respect.   the % would be the % chance for strikethrough to fire.  Aka 75% of hits would ignore mitigation at 50.   Id have to see some parses before id be okay with asking for 100%. 

Dragons dont get a 100% avoidance buff like drunken/harmonious so i think it would be justifiable to give them a strong dps buff like that. 




 
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Shinri
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 02:07:57 AM »

What if the buff guaranteed strikethrough 100% of the time but only though 50/75% of their mitigation instead of strikethough 50/75% of the time for 100%?  I'd personally prefer to always strike through a certain percent of mitigation so our damage isn't real spikey, and I'd hate to waste an exploding heart finisher on attacks that don't make it though the mitigation.  Thoughts on that?
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 03:28:15 AM »

So the strikethough would basically be 'ignore X% of targets mitigation'.  So, where the Harmonious uses an attack to put a temporary mitigation debuff on the mob that all can use, the Dragon is buffed to ignore a larger % on any mob he attacks-a mob with 60% mit would only be say 40% against a dragon monk?
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Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 06:16:51 AM »


I think mathamaticly it doesnt matter if its 100% on, and 50% armor strike through.   Because If you only strike through 50% of hits at 100% strike through its the same dmg.

100% on, only strikes through 50% of mit.
Hit1: Strikethrough = yes.  Dragon monk hits for 3000 dmg.
Hit2: Strikethrough = yes. Dragon monk hits for 3000 dmg
Hit3: Strikethrough = yes. Dragon monk hits for 3000 dmg
Hit4: Strikethrough = Yes. Dragon monk hits for 3000 dmg.

100% on, only strikes through 50% of the time but 100% strikethrough
Hit1: Strikethrough = yes.  Dragon monk hits for 4000 dmg.
Hit2: Strikethrough = no. Dragon monk hits for 2000 dmg
Hit3: Strikethrough = yes. Dragon monk hits for 4000 dmg
Hit4: Strikethrough = no. Dragon monk hits for 2000 dmg.

Youll see example 2 has harder dmg hits but they both average out to be a 1000 dps gain over the standard 2k hit (just made it up for sake of having easy math)  But yeah i see what you mean about spikey

Although i do understand your stand point and from a developers point of view id rather give dragon monks a 100% on, that only goes through 50/75% of the mitigation, because i imagine it would be a nightmare trying to balance and more dificult to code my way.


Overall, yeah an always on buff, that strikes through 50% of targets mitigation and at 50 it goes to 75%?  I think its worth it, and i think its something we deserve.  It would definatly level the field and put us a lot closer to rogue and sorc dps where we should be anyways since we have no energy and 1/10 the utility of a rogue.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 06:18:36 AM by Fujitsu » Logged

Shinri
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2008, 02:45:54 AM »

The more I think about it, a large mitigation strikethrough may be a bit too overpowered for something corona should deliver.  I'm personally leaning more towards a buff that makes our elemental secrets do more damage (or maybe just SoF, since it's our staple dps secret and the buff is "Sun Dragon's Corona.")

If our stances are going to be looked at, then let's reserve our major dps increase for Storm Dragon Stance.  If we could get a scaling similar to Drunken, that would solve a lot of our dps issues.  This is personally what I'd like to see

Level 15: 20% damage, 4% crit, 10% chance to proc lightning
Level 30: 28% damage, 6% crit, 15% chance to proc lightning
Level 50: 36% damage, 8% crit, 20% chance to proc lightning

If we could hope for something like this, then I'd be perfectly happy with a buff that increases secrets damage instead of something as powerful as what we're discussing.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2008, 06:42:09 AM »

To be honest thats the more likely outcome.  The thing about strike through is on some mobs it would be amazing and on others it would do next to nothing (minus 50% of a casters mitigation? lol) 

The way i look at it though is monk dmg is considerably far behind rogue/sorc.  Rogue of which has huge amounts of utility.  Thus a skill adding 50% strike through wouldnt be to far fetched considering we basicly need to double our currently dmg just to compete with rog/sorc for dps raid slots. 

As far as the stance suggestions, i agree whole heartidly.  Id ask for a small tweak to the crit and possible a change to the dmg increase.  The % are fine, but id like to clarify that i want generic dmg increase (aka spells + melee,  not just melee dmg)
Level 15: 20% damage, 4% crit, 10% chance to proc lightning
Level 30: 28% damage, 7% crit, 15% chance to proc lightning
Level 50: 36% damage, 10% crit, 20% chance to proc lightning

The easy way to make sundragons corona a secret enhancer would be a spell dmg focus/int buff.

Corona 1: +100 int (monks be dumb) +20% spell dmg + fire resists
Corona 2: +150 int (monks be lesser dumb) +25% spell dmg + fire resists

I know for a fact spell dmg mods effect secrets and dragon breath because ive gone the int path for dps and can get secret of flame up to 600 dmg an attack with 400 dmg dot. 

The most viable strike through would probably be:
Corona 1: Strikethrough 25% of target mitigation, +fire resists
Corona 2: Strikethrough 40% of targets mitigation, + fire resists
Again this would be pending tests to make sure that the % are enough to add decent dps and make it noticable.

Overall no matter what happens to corona i think everyone agrees it needs ot be either 1 hr buff or perm on via Diamond skin for harmonious
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Zerathule
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2008, 07:42:51 AM »

Do you realise the increase in DPS Fujitsu Huh?
So, first, what do you mean by Strikethrough ?
A ) Is it a net  - X % to the mob's mitigation (mob has 40% mitigation, net reduction of 20% means the mob goes down to 20% mitigation)
or
B ) would it lower by X% the mob's mitigation ? ( lowering meaning the mob would go down to 32% as 20% of 40 = 8.)

Second, to show the increase in dps both would made here's the formula.
Lets keep the same numbers :
M = mitigation of the mob
S = Strike through value.
D = Base DPS
F = Final value of DPS
X = Percentage of increase in DPS

Since we're talking of percentages, we'll say a monk has a base 100 DPS, that's before the mob's mitigation.

So, when a monk hits a mob with 40% mitigation, his DPS is 60.
Formula :
F1 = D - (D * M/100)
F1 = 100 - (100 * 40/100) = 60
So, without strikethrough, a monk would have a base dps of 60 (that means actualy 60% of the dps he would make on a mob with 0% mitigation).

So now lets study option A.
We still take 20 Strikethrough. (so S = 20)
So, the final value of dps would be 80 (that is 80 % of the dps he would make on a mob with 0% mitigation)
Formula :
F2 = D - (D * (M-S)/100)
F2 = 100 - (100 * (40 - 20)/100) = 80

That means an actual increase in DPS of 33.33%
Formula :
We take F1 = 60 (Dps without Strikethrough) and F2 = 80 (Dps with Strikethrough)
X = (F2 - F1)/F1 * 100
X = (80 - 60)/60 * 100 = 33.33333 (going from 60 to 80 makes an actual increase of 33%)

Now lets take option B

With this option, a monk would have a base dps of 68
Formula : (F3 meaning the final DPS after mitigation of a monk with Strikethrough 20% calculated with option B)
F3 = D -(M - ((S/100)*M)
F3 = 100 - (40 - ((20/100)*40) = 68

That would mean an increase in DPS of 13.33333 dps

Formula :
We take F1 = 60 (Dps without Strikethrough) and F3 = 68 (Dps with Strikethrough)
X = (F3 - F1)/F1 * 100
X = (68 - 60)/60 * 100 = 13.33333 (going from 60 to 68 makes an actual increase of 13.33%)


So, in my very humble opinion, a buff that would add 13.33% raw dps on a mob with 40% mitigation (and we could get numbers from various zones, but 40% mitigation seems realistic for higher end stuff ?)
Give me actual numbers for mobs mitigation, especially for raid stuff, and i'll give you the raise in DPS.
13% is imho already way to much. That means 13% plus the actual dragon stance that adds like 30% no ? (meaning a global increase of 47% dps compared to a monk with no stance)

Imagine the imbalance with the other two paths ?
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Leishiu
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2008, 08:08:31 AM »

All mobs (used to) have 20% mitigation, Eagle Claw + Bard debuff or 2x Eagle Claw of diffrent rank brought it to zero. Unless mitigation has been changed, stackability removed (there should be enough classes who can remove all damage mitigation on a mob completely anyhow) or sommert, you should assume 0% melee mitigation on a raid. ~
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2008, 08:37:53 AM »

You mean Eagle claw 1 and 2 would stack for mitigation decrease purposes Huh? Are you sure the effect stacks or just the windows appear twice ?
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Fujitsu
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2008, 10:43:18 AM »

Yes all harmonious buffs used to stack within themselves, so you could have 5 deathly adders on for minus 900 str .  Not sure if its still like that.


Yes zerathule i realize the dps increase...   typical raid tanks sit at 60% mit (the cap) so lets assume that the typical raid boss starts at the same.

A 50% strike through would mean to ignore the 60% mit and assume the target has 30% mit. 

AKA a 10k dmg hit (peh) on a 60% mit target would do 4k.   
With 50% strikethrough, that hit would be 8k.     

Im kinda iffy on your math because your numbers are way to low and unrealistic.  My average dps is around 2k in raids.  Rogues average dps in raids is bout 5-7k in raids.   So even under your math, i think i would still take a 13% increase in dps.   Although dps increase is Dependant on 2 things....1) original mitigation of target  2) what you can actually debuff it to. 

So lets say i average 2k dps, on a target with 50% mitigation.  that means my dps would be 4k if the target mitigated nothing.   Also it means that with 50% strike through i would be doing 3k dps. 

I think before you shoot down a 13% increase.... you take a step back and see how closer harmonious is to dragon (26% dps at 50) as far as total dps, cause frankly i think harmonious need diamond skind taken away and deadly adder dmg reduced if dragons arent getting mroe dps.....  you do realize with one patch harmonious went from middle of the road to better deffensive and offensive then dragon and drunken right? 
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2008, 10:46:20 AM »

To be honest thats the more likely outcome.  The thing about strike through is on some mobs it would be amazing and on others it would do next to nothing (minus 50% of a casters mitigation? lol) 

The way i look at it though is monk dmg is considerably far behind rogue/sorc.  Rogue of which has huge amounts of utility.  Thus a skill adding 50% strike through wouldnt be to far fetched considering we basicly need to double our currently dmg just to compete with rog/sorc for dps raid slots. 

As far as the stance suggestions, i agree whole heartidly.  Id ask for a small tweak to the crit and possible a change to the dmg increase.  The % are fine, but id like to clarify that i want generic dmg increase (aka spells + melee,  not just melee dmg)
Level 15: 20% damage, 4% crit, 10% chance to proc lightning
Level 30: 28% damage, 7% crit, 15% chance to proc lightning
Level 50: 36% damage, 10% crit, 20% chance to proc lightning

The easy way to make sundragons corona a secret enhancer would be a spell dmg focus/int buff.

Corona 1: +100 int (monks be dumb) +20% spell dmg + fire resists
Corona 2: +150 int (monks be lesser dumb) +25% spell dmg + fire resists

I know for a fact spell dmg mods effect secrets and dragon breath because ive gone the int path for dps and can get secret of flame up to 600 dmg an attack with 400 dmg dot. 

The most viable strike through would probably be:
Corona 1: Strikethrough 25% of target mitigation, +fire resists
Corona 2: Strikethrough 40% of targets mitigation, + fire resists
Again this would be pending tests to make sure that the % are enough to add decent dps and make it noticable.

Overall no matter what happens to corona i think everyone agrees it needs ot be either 1 hr buff or perm on via Diamond skin for harmonious

Your new stance propsal looks solid.

As far as corona I really like the INT boost version, simple and clean. The strikethrough would take more work and it's returns would be more random.
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Draxs
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2008, 08:36:43 PM »

looks good Fuji, nice and solid . I know you have been doing alot of work in getting dragon fixed, and while i wont leave drunken in any foreseeable future your efforts are appreciated.
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2008, 01:32:08 AM »

Yes all harmonious buffs used to stack within themselves, so you could have 5 deathly adders on for minus 900 str .  Not sure if its still like that.


Yes zerathule i realize the dps increase...   typical raid tanks sit at 60% mit (the cap) so lets assume that the typical raid boss starts at the same.

A 50% strike through would mean to ignore the 60% mit and assume the target has 30% mit. 

AKA a 10k dmg hit (peh) on a 60% mit target would do 4k.   
With 50% strikethrough, that hit would be 8k.     

Im kinda iffy on your math because your numbers are way to low and unrealistic.  My average dps is around 2k in raids.  Rogues average dps in raids is bout 5-7k in raids.   So even under your math, i think i would still take a 13% increase in dps.   Although dps increase is Dependant on 2 things....1) original mitigation of target  2) what you can actually debuff it to. 

So lets say i average 2k dps, on a target with 50% mitigation.  that means my dps would be 4k if the target mitigated nothing.   Also it means that with 50% strike through i would be doing 3k dps. 

I think before you shoot down a 13% increase.... you take a step back and see how closer harmonious is to dragon (26% dps at 50) as far as total dps, cause frankly i think harmonious need diamond skind taken away and deadly adder dmg reduced if dragons arent getting mroe dps.....  you do realize with one patch harmonious went from middle of the road to better deffensive and offensive then dragon and drunken right? 

The numbers i take for dps is a "base 100" (sorry i dont know how to call that math method in english). Since we're talking about percentages, then witha a base 100, you can have an average dps of 20K or 50 it doesnt matter, only the variations matter.

Now, i have no experience between the various monks.
Imho, each one should be heavyly parsed to see the differences in dps.
Again, imho, if we say that dragon>harmo>drunken in terms of dps, (or that this should be the case) then i think the differences should be by 10 to 15% percent maximum.
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2008, 08:32:19 AM »

I agree with you there, dragons should be 10 to 15% more dps then harmonious, currently harmonious is 2-5% more then dragon. 

The problem is that when developers parse dps they use a combat dummy that doesnt attack back and has pretty low mitigation.  So the northwind line is hard to parse, (aka doesnt really get added on ever unless dps parse is from an actual fight)  and the effects of a 15% mitigation debuff are minimal.

Also i believe a 15% mitigation debuff takes a 50% mitigation target to 42.5% (not 35% mit) because the other way would be rediculous (50-15= 35). 
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2008, 08:52:50 AM »

Solid ideas, what about a lvl 30 version that's half effective as the lvl 40? No reason to wait til the last 10 lvls to feel like a "Dragon".  I think i favor the 'Strikethrough' option though... as far as a secret enhancer... i'm still waiting to see what we can come up with for Secret of Transcendance, would hate to see a change on 1 to negatively influence the change on the other
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