Your both right and wrong.  I want monks to be completely equal in dps, utility, and pulling.  But not in the sense that all 3 have the same dps/utility/pulling.  Ideally dragon > harmonious> drunken in dps.  Then on the flip side drunken>harmonious>dragon at tanking (solo/.group/ raid??).     The sum of all things should make them equal so picking any form of monk doesnt leave you severly lacking.

Dragon have dps but no utility or pulling.  AE isnt a utility, and theres no way a dragon can pull the same things as a harmonious or drunken.  So to avoid mudflating dragons dps WAY up to compensate for their lack of utility/pulling.   It would be far easier to turn useless abilities into abilities that add utility (elemental attacks) or pulling ( a small invuln so they can split, albeit less efficiently then drunken and harmonious)

As far as drunkens utility.  foolhardy swagger alone (if fixed) is enough utility that it almost merits a drunken monk being in every raid just to feed hate to the main tank.  (imagine a tank with 14% more agro, that means a lot ).  As far as force taunts go.... you might want to experiment with them a bit.   They are for 2 attacks... which means the mob has to hit you.   Theres plenty of times when 20seconds of an invuln tank with 100% agro can be handy.  Not to mention other mobs who have unique abilities that you dont want on your main tank... stuff that can be prevented if say a drunken force taunts, takes the debuff, then feigns. 

I also take from your posts that you didnt read the other thread about suggested changes?  Where all 3 classes got (what i think is) fair arguments of suggested fixes/tweaks/balances.   I dont think dragons need a million more dps... i think useless ae's need to be removed (not all of them, just dragon breath, and 2 others, the ae finisher line is fine...even if i havent used it since level 30) and stuff lke a 80 point dmg shield changed into something dragons can benifit from.  With 0 mitigation a 500 point dmg shield would be useless.   It would make more sense to reduce the penalty on the offensive stance and to change the dmg shield into a proactive form of dps (theres over 20+ suggestions out there). 

That is an opinion not a fact.  There's a difference. 

It can be argued well that having offtank and alternate aggro manuvers IS utility.  It certainly is considered such for turgin shaman and clerics (esp protection affinity).  But like anything else this has different value to different people.  That said claiming harmony has "more utility" than drunken is a very subjective statement.

OK guys...can both of you kill the exaggerations.

Just because a despription in game suggests something doesn't make it fact by a long shot.  Rakurr description still essentially listed them as getting intensity...which hasn't been in game since...I don't remember how long at this point.  In game description doesn't neccesarily = a trump card that defines exactly what the devs had intended.  I'm pretty sure any of us could find several glitches in texts or descriptions without trying terribly hard.  Any person's given viewpoint on how they feel things should be balanced is just that, a viewpoint.  Until the devs flat out say "this is what we intend to have" everything else is opinion...and even then it would be the devs opinion on how things should be.  Everyone would be entitled to disagree or agree with the dev's opinion.

Its like trying to argue what someone else's favorite color should be as a fact.  Utter waste of time.

And saying that dragon are USELESS as primary pullers in APW is blatently false.  We can and do use disciples as primary pullers sometimes just fine.  And PLENTY of guilds (ours included) use dragon monkies as primary pullers.  The simple point that it does in fact happen invalidates the statement that they are useless in that capacity.

I would strongly suggest for both of you to take a step back before you further degrade your own conversations.

True but then you have to be an ugly, icky human... and as an orc thats not an option!

In all seriousness whats the reuse timer, 15 min?  Thats a bit long ;-p

Druinken/harmonious monk may only be melee dodge and not a true invuln but the 5 min timer with a longer duration makes it fine.  The only thing to watch for is casters, and Line of sight> invuln for that

Okay so i looked it up on curses, so mind you these might not be 100% accurate but they give you the picture.   This is a comparison of hp vs protection gear

Head
48 mitigation or 140 hp (1.3%)  ~3hp/1mitigation
Boots
72 mitigation or 152 hp (1.9%) ~2hp/1mitigation
Shoulders
72 mitigation or 152 hp (1.9%) ~2hp/1mitigation
Legs
118 mitigation or 290 hp (3.2%) ~2.5hp/1 mitigation

734 hp given up for 8.3% mitigation (i guessed it pretty much right on)

So if you were 7k raid buffed youd lose 10% hp (6266 hp) but would gain 8.3% mitigation.  AKA the average 5k hit goes to about 4.6k.  Only 400 less dmg taken but you lost 700 hp.   So instead of being at 28% hp your now at  26% hp.   So yes the over all conclusion would be to get atleast 9k hp before you start trading off hp for mitigation. 

I personally never used mitigation gear as a drunken.  Now with full apw gear i have more mitigation just due to the fact i have higher ac on all my armor.  I lost about 1k hp (not as much con or raw hp) but I am still over 9.5k with max raid buffs, and 9k average. 

Fuji, there is no primary or secondary puller. There are two pullers, one takes mobs away one pulls to camp. Takes two to split regardless of whatever label you give them.

And seeing that we can kill every mob in APW, and all the overlands in 4 days I would not say we are innafective.

In fact I would say the most effective pulling monk combo you can have is Dragon+Harm/Drunken. But since I never discuss anything even remotely related to stats I will leave the rest of you as to figure out why I feel that way.

How you say it is 'supposed to be' and how it currently is, are complete opposites... Im curious from a development standpoint what do you think would be more effective and time efficient... Completly remaking all 3 monks classes in order to make them how you say monks 'should' be, or keeping them how they are and just increase dragons dps by a small amount. This would basically put dragons back on top as the best dps monk, drunken would remain good dps and good pullers, and harmonious would remain the utility class and best puller.

You are focusing far to much on HOW the monks pull rather than the fact they are all able to pull in their own way. Dragon monks make the best Splitter. They pull a mob off the drunken or Harmonious monk.. Typically a spell casting mob and are able to absorb alot of the mobs nukes due to their defensive stance. A drunken monk or harmonious monk splitting off a caster mob have a much higher chance of dying due to spells than a dragon monk. There would be absolutly no point in having 3 monk types if all 3 were equally the same in every way, which is what you seem to want.

All monks currently have a usefullness and purpose why change that? I again do not disagree dragon monks need to have a small dps boost but how you say monks "should" be would involve far more work than is needed. Ive always been a firm believer of not changing a good thing. There are some small changes I think need to be done to all monk types but for the most part monks are a good thing... why change that?

My thoughts exactly.

And yes Fuji the best combo includes a drunken/harm tagging first and the Dragon pulling off them as Jak described.