With the WORST mez in game.  MANY other classes can mez and they CAN DO IT AT RANGE, AND CHAIN MEZ, AND DO IT WHILE IN COMBAT! of yeah, and all of them except the bard mez last almost 2x the time and with a recast time LESS than the mez time.  but the bard mez has the bonus of stripping all buffs and stances...



thats nice, I can pull better with pally, a bard, a ranger, a cleric, or a psi.  You see they're pulling abilities aren't totally broken.  Oh yeah, and they don't need the mobs to be in a 4 pack to make their pulling work.

realistically, harmonious monks can use 2-3 different debuffs.  and that 3rd requires a fairly hefty amount of jin.  Many other classes have cheaper and more debuffs.


at 50 monk is second tier DPS once the casters, rangers, and bards get geared out.  hell even a geared out BM can out damage a 50 monk.


we joke about monk utility in my guild.  The only 2 classes right now that need more fixes than a monk are rogue and disc, but at least the rogue have a nice mez and sneak.  For DPS, we're better off with rangers and sorcs.  For utility we're better off with just about any other class in the game.  For wiped we have peace clerics and necros. 

The problem is the monks DPS is subpar and its utility really doesn't exist in comparison to other classes.  Yes you can spin it as we have this or that utility but they all compare very poorly to any other class that can do them. 

]

I have a very good understanding of class balance thank you.  The thing I think you are missing is that the classes where people are trying to maintain a "balance" are the classes that fall behind.  Look at the various classes that people think are good and in high demand.  All of them have very active class leaders continuously pushing for improvements for the class.  They aren't worrying that something might unbalance the class vs other classes, they are worried about making the class the best it can possibly be.

Look at the DK, it went from an ok tank to the BEST tank currently in the game, because the class lead constantly pushed changed to fix the deficiencies within the class.  In contrast the warrior class lead constantly says the class is fine and other classes need to be nerfed.  Not pushing through changes to fix the warrior class, but wanting to instead weaken other classes.  So the warrior class has gone from a good to best tank to the worst tank in the game.

Its up to the devs to maintain a balance.  It is up to the players to push for improvements for their class.  Those classes where the players aren't pushing for improvements WILL get the short end of the stick.  Just look at monk itemization, which is worse now than cleric itemization.  The cleric itemization was the worse in the game at the beginning.  The clerics constantly pushed for better itemization and as such it has vastly improved.

I'm just saying there is a reason that monks are one of the least played classes in the game.  If someone asked what melee fighter to go?  Ranger or bard.

I would like the monk to get to the point that it is considered decent and for that to happen the lack of utility must be balanced out by a reasonable advantage in dps.


Did I ever say it should be the best?  No.  You brought it up as an example of a monks utility.  I counterpointed with the fact that the monk rez is the most limited with one of the shortest durations and the most use limitations.


they can pull some things that other classes can because of strict dev limitations, but aside from RI, the other pulling skills are far more useful.   besides that FD usefulness is significantly hampered atm because the basic mechanics of the FD are broken.

Also there are a LARGER number of mobs that have hard links that lull can be used to effectively pull where FD cannot.

DAH and EC are the two main ones without restrictions.

North wind is a crit finisher, tree trunk isn't really a debuff, but an effective dot.  Also the timer for the finisher is longer than the debuff.

Steal the wind REQUIRES aggro AND a parry/dodge.  In general it much more a useless self buff than an effective debuff.  It would be a lot more usefull if the debuff portion has as long a time as the buff portion.  I'm already at the point where auto-attacks do not happen because they are linked to global cooldown and I'm always using special attacks because they do more damage.  For attack slow, I much prefer to use a quick 2-4s switch to a frost weapon for its proc which last longer and affects both melee and spell haste.

You also forgot quivering palm which is ok, but again lasts for a very short duration and requires aggro and a dodge.

In order to keep EC, DAH, and WP up, you pretty much have to do a small fraction of normal combat DPS.


Then the sorcs and rangers you play with either need better gear OR play their class better.  I've tried every tactic possible with harmonious monk and fought with dragon monks as well...

and any good sorc is doing 10k+ every 2 sec...

A equiped sorc or ranger can and does out dps all styles of monk.  Maybe the gear that your sorcs use should be looked at and also they should get ALL their skills.  Weren't you the one claiming that only 1 longsword of the assassin could be used when in fact you can duel wield them?


And the mobs that can't be lulled?  1 zone in the game that has mezzes that can be used instead.  At 50 we should be 20-30% higher DPS than rangers yet we are below it.  This is a balance factor for the trade off of the ranger utility and flexability.


I'm already at the point where I have enough end regen to stay in legendary tiger all the time.  I'm at or near a 100% crit rate currently.


have them.  Part of the problem is they are a lvl 49 weapon so they lack a significant amount of points vs the weapons most other classes are using (for example long sword of the assassin, 53, flawless hammer of striking, 53, etc).



already hit it.


As I already mentioned, I already crit almost 100% of the time. 

I know how to play the class.  I like the class.  But it isn't where it needs to be.  Its just that simple.  Its a combination of needing a general DPS buff to the class, our lvl 50 finisher being well below where it should be, and poor itemization and itemization options for crafted gear.  It really only requires a few changes to put the class where it should be:

Handwraps should be lvl 53 weapons.
PEH should be based off melee damage and not direct damage and should have side effects.
our debuffs should last longer.
and FD should actually work and not have totally borked game mechanics.
and our buffs should be on much lower timers.  30 min/20 min/10 min for our defense buffs is just too long.

First of all harmonious monk is not a high dps monk.  Sorry, you may get +30% crit rate at 50, but dragon and drunken both get minimum of +22% dmg which is far more useful.  That 22% dmg difference is HUGE.  Take PEH for example It makes a 3k hit do 3.66k, which can then crit for 1.5 *3.66= 5.5k where a harmonious monk would just crit for 1.5*3k = 4.5k max damage.

Crits are amazing dont get me wrong all my armor has crits, but if was a dps monk i would be dragon/drunken for the offensive stance then get + crit gear to get you to the cap (i think its 40% atm from gear and 20% from dex) Add on the extra 5% for fistwraps, and pretty much any monk will be at 65% crit rate, and harmonious at 95%.

As for "prying my self away from the lvl 50 side.  I leveled the same as everyone else, and im well aware of the unballance and lack of gear at lower levels.  Bows and quivers are rediculous and sub 45, rangers are over powered because of them.  If fistwraps were inline with bows, people would whine that monk dps is to high. 

As far as utility.... if you only want to count non-main stream utility, then only count FD.   Over 50% of the classes in the game get rez, mez, pacify (lull), agro modifiers/transfers/dumps, charms.  There is almost no single spell/ability in the game that atleast 2-3 other classes dont get. 


Monk
- Probably somewhere between rogues and bards most levels, with rangers at the top of the DPS tree.  mostly due to bows and how unbalanced they are, take away bows and rangers <<<<monks/rogues.
- A mez that is consumed on a miss, lasts 30 seconds (lowest of all the mezzes), can only be used out of combat and cannot be recast on the same mob once it gets broken. Hence: novelty, not at all reliable. Hardly a novelty, i use my mez just about as often as a bard uses theirs
- No group buffs- perhaps your forgeting the fact we get the most self buffs, 4 secrets, iron hand, + 2-5 more depending on the form u use with harmonious getting the second most and drunken the most
- Very unreliable pulling that is not time efficient and often leads to our own death where we actually use it. It's also limited by the availability of four mobs.  true for now, but soon it will be a high utility that works in all zones


How about using feign to scout?  If something sees invis/sneak then only a monk/disciple/necro can get past it and even then only monk can do it reliably.  Or even to drag a healers tomb to a camp, rez him, then have him call the group?

Ill work on making a chart later comparing the rogue/ranger/monk skills at 50 like i did for the 3 forms of monks, then we can see who really makes out the best.

you do know how the game biases crits right?  I generally crit PEH for 7-9k.  While harmonious is lower DPS than drunken (which it shouldn't be since it is supposed to be in the middle) or dragon, it isn't far behind at all.

[quote\Crits are amazing dont get me wrong all my armor has crits, but if was a dps monk i would be dragon/drunken for the offensive stance then get + crit gear to get you to the cap (i think its 40% atm from gear and 20% from dex) Add on the extra 5% for fistwraps, and pretty much any monk will be at 65% crit rate, and harmonious at 95%.[/quote]

fistwraps actually add 7.5%..  And any proper monk build will not get 20% from dex, since you can't have both 900 str and 900 dex.


yes but in general when a class gets a utility, it works and is decent, something that cannot be said about the vast majority of the monk "utilities"


Monk

you keep trying to bring this up but you are wrong.  A ranger out DPSs a monk or rogue in MELEE!


then you need better bards.  Fastest cast mez that strips stances and buffs from mobs.  Its probably the best mez in game.



secrets and iron hand are required to get our dps to the point where it is higher than the offensive healers (and even then a decent bear shaman can pump almost the same dps).



I'll believe it when I see it.  Its been over 9 months now....



feign to scout where sneak doesn't work...  Sneak works everywhere.  Esp with +sneak/hide gear!  I don't know about you but I'm not FD scouting in stirhaad or APW!  A rogue OR ranger can scout it with EASE in stealth. 

Don't know when you played a rogue, but he told me this yesterday.

- As to the damage reduction: not bad, when you can force crits even on a rogue. They get a 100% crit chance ability, where a Dragon's best is 60% extra chance for a crit.
- Blackjack is reusable every 15 seconds. I see him do it every day.
- Yes, we can prevent a CR completely... for now. Once the whole group needs to wipe, a rogue with Escape is still better if corpses need to be dragged somewhere.

No, they aren't, as they have ample time (about 5 secs) to move when spotted before the mob aggroes. And almost no mobs that aren't red see through stealth as it is.

As to the debuff lines, it at least used to stack with itself, so you could add the 5 strength debuffs (rank I to V) and keep them running on a mob; and since they all debuff the same amout of strength, which at 50 is respectable, the mobs DPS would crawl down to just about nothing. Just like you can (could) stack two versions of Eagle Claw to reduce mitigation to an actual 0%. Not much damage is really done, but the mob isn't doing it either (or wasen't anyway, been some time!)
Since it appears there's still not even been a touch since the "OOOOOOPS!" on monks from LU1 (and the smaller fixes now and then, fixing a few things, not fixing most things), desire to play isn't skyhigh!