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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Level 50 diffrences (Dragon vs. Harmonious) « previous next »
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Author Topic: Level 50 diffrences (Dragon vs. Harmonious)  (Read 1430 times)
Leishiu
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« on: April 19, 2007, 07:17:07 AM »

Stances
The dragon has 24% damage, 5% crit and a 15% to proc a decent enough lightnig bolt. Their tradeoff is that they loose 16% of their mitigation (and due to how mitigation works, that's not a real disadvantage - if you're at 12% mitigation before, you'll be at 10% or so after - ie you'll take 10 more damage per hit, which is penuts). The harmonious brings out the beast that is Tiger (30% critrate in exchange for 40% heftier endurance costs). Defensivly, a dragon is better at avoiding fire/cold spell damage, where the harmonious at blows; Harmonious gets the most bang for the buck there, even though the rune should not be underestimated.

Abilities
Deadly Adder Hand vs. Six Dragon Strike - I would have to say that the Six Dragon Strike (while it still could use a power pushup, with a reuse added as balance rather than absurd endurance costs) is the better choice. DAH is more useful now with it's extended duration, but lacks the spamability (and shouldn't have) that Six Dragons have. OTOH, the critrate of the Harmonious Style means that you'll mostly be spamming finishers anyhow.
Eagle Claw vs. Feet of the Fire Dragon - Eagle Claw is rather superior. Unless you have a group combination where there's a lot of people who can already mitigate damage, they are so unmatchable in power it's sad. The only real use for FotFD is combined with Jin Surge, 1000 damage (undepndable of your weapon) at 50 for 28 endurance over 16 seconds is sad, so very sad. With Jin Surge, you add an extra 1600 damage though, and it's decent, however, 5 Jin and 28 endurance is a hefty price, since it's a dot and wont stack itself.
Dragon Rakes Its Claw vs. Withering Palm - Might not be the most fair comparsion, but running out of abilities to compare here... DRIC could use a cooldown, doing 150-200% damage and it be nice and dandy. Withering Palm (even though obtained late, this is a 50 compasion though) is very nice now with it's minute duration and wins easily.
Hand in Cloud vs. Sun Dragons Corona - Dragon takes this match, only because of the added fire resist and the usefulness of the decent damage shield (~1/4th of the Hand in Cloud, but maintable permanently if you so wish) solo/small group. 
Dragon Breath vs. Find the Center - 1400 cone damage for 8 jin each 10 minutes or 100% parry and block (haha) for 20 seconds, costing 8 jin and 20 minute reuse. Tricky choice... Find the Center is the closest to "I win" defensive button monk (and we have surpringly many for an offensive class) has; while Dragon Breath is the closest we have to a joke.
Aspect of the Cloud Dragon vs. Diamond Body - Another point for the dragon monk, mostly due to the reuse. The ability to self-invis is very nice for some splits if the party lacks someone who can invis another person. Diamond Body is, if you want to describe it in a nice way, completely untouched though, so might not be a fair comparsion.
Celestial Kick of the Masters vs. Divine Tunami - Uncomparable really. I can't comprehend how a 3rd finisher line made into launch (well, ok, it wasen't tested above 50, so would explain it) with it being style specific. Celestial Kick blows Tsunami away, far far far away.
Dragon Claw Finisher vs. North Wind Finisher - Dragon Claw and it normally lands (unbuffed) for approximitly 4600 - with crits being as high as ~7000 (but I've seen it tick for 7000 and ending up at an impressive 28000 damage - which pretty much topnotches anything else (bar thousand fists on skeletons)). North Wind line was upgraded (duration and damage of effects) and now appears to last 30 seconds, reducing the damage of the enemy by 75 (which is rather decent) and dealing 300 damage each time the mob strikes (not at all impressive in group, decent solo). The dragon finisher here is the better and is with the 1 minute cooldown one of the saving graces of dragon style.

Actual Diffrences
Solo: The Harmonious is rather superior due to ability to process enough finishers for you to spam them from start to end. Along with the mitigation debuff your strikes deals equal or more damage than they do in Storm dragon. Aum Ti makes the endurance costs neligible, and with cheap attacks along with a nice jin flow on the finishers (and ability to boost yourself with an additional +10% damage) it's just a much a penalty as that of the Storm Dragon, ie neligible. The third step on Flying Kick chain make a lot of diffrence, 3x2k5 crits shortens fights rather rapidly. I was able to solo 16 mobs in rapid succession this morning, with only self buffs, something I wouldn't have dreamt of doing as dragon.
Small group: Dragon excells at it's rapid agro ability, where Harmonious usually starts up with Eagle Claw (and pending healing potency in group, Deadly Adder Hand to reduce incoming damage) and then starts building up agro from crits, which can lead to some others getting hit; but once the mob is locked on the harmonious monk, it's stuck (this is true for Dragon aswell though) if you're the tank and people can control their agro decently (I assume you're not grouped with idiots). In general, grouped with a warrior or bard (or even an harmonious monk), the dragon monk will start to shine a bit (someone will reduce the mitigation of the mob - this along with +24% damage makes for huge diffrences), but otherwise, the Harmonious monk will perform very stable, Flying Kicking from the start to the end.
Full Group: Dragon will really (and I mean really) shine with a bard and a cleric. Ashen Hand will see 3000 hits without crits, Thousand Fists 9500 crits. All that +damage% appears to have real stacking issues (multiplications on already done multiplications?) or just add up in a symphony of violence. I'm unsure how these effects go for other offensive classes (didn't really discuss it overly) but the bard wasen't noticing as high peaks as I was, nor was the dreadknight. I'm unsure what the Harmonious monk would bring to a table like that, but I would think about equally (the capital diffrences being crit rate for finishers (and finisher damage, very important aswell) and +10% damage (Withering Palm) which speak for the the harmonious and the static +24% damage that speaks for the dragon.) In a less optimized group for slaughter, the harmonious monk will stick out more though, the mitigation debuff is unsurpassed on personal and group damage.

I switched to Dragon in the light of the changes at 46 and played it to 50 - the performance did peak as the dragon stance went live; I performed better as Dragon than I did as harmonious pre 50. However, after a bit at 50, I went back to harmonious, and along with the patches (for minor details) it's rather ideal. I can't say I don't miss parts from the Dragon (invisibilty and Dragon Claw line) - but harmonious feels rather superior 50 - and a style shouldn't make or break on a utility and a 1 minute reuse finisher.
The fixes for making dragon more playable right here, right now (without to much thought on the future) are rather easy. Sanity check Six Dragon, Feet of the Fire Dragon and Dragon Rakes Its Claw - add small cooldowns (8-10 seconds) and increase damage significally - FotFD dosen't need that, it cannot stack with itself due to being a dot - adding 25-50% more power wouldn't hurt it. Add the third step for all finishers for all styles (unless they also go through checks and gets powered up, where all remaining at 2 steps might be just fine and having something more "unique" offensivly as level 50 powers) and a possible fourth step for each style.

It will be hard to get an overall damage improvement (for all styles) until some things are "nerfed" (such as the insanity critrate from the Tiger stance - it will be our brothers keeper for finishers); but I just find it sad that the dragon gets so blatantly outdated by the second you hit 50...

There's probably some aspects I've missed (there should be, either because of absentmindedness or from not seeing it!) but this is my subjective view on the diffrences. It also dosen't touch things I would want (besides some comments on some abilities) monks to become, but is rather a try to document how things are now.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 07:21:02 AM by Leishiu » Logged

Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 08:06:02 AM »

Nice post, I wish someone would add a Drunken skill comparison into it as well.
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Ninbei
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 08:10:15 AM »

Good post, Leishiu.

Now go change to drunken and tell me what you think!   Grin
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Jengfu
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 10:35:06 AM »

Some of you when it comes to tiger form, sound like drowning poeple that cant stand to drown alone and need to drown some one els with them. The problem is monks dps all of us even harm to a lesser extent. What you need to do is do a good parser of both with same gear, same dungeon same route with the same group of pople to see who is that much supperior. most likly harm will be on top, but how much will it be?

And devs are really talking about DPS for us even tought we arent were we are suppose to be, but when it comes to any other class when there not where there suppose to be... suprise they fix them and improve them.
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Jaxinor
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2007, 11:17:03 AM »

After yesterdays patch, Storm dragon stance actually reduces your mitigation by 10%.  Before when it said 16%, it was 16% of your total mitigation, which was something like 1-2% (iirc).  Now, it's a flat 10%.  For example, I have about 1700 ac, which I think is about 11-12% mitigation.  When I go into storm dragon stance and hover over my defense, my mitigation is 1%.  Just thought I'd add that.

Good post as always Leishu.
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Leishiu
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2007, 11:25:13 AM »

Some of you when it comes to tiger form, sound like drowning poeple that cant stand to drown alone and need to drown some one els with them. The problem is monks dps all of us even harm to a lesser extent. What you need to do is do a good parser of both with same gear, same dungeon same route with the same group of pople to see who is that much supperior. most likly harm will be on top, but how much will it be?

It's irrelevant at the moment, but if Flying Kick (for example) was upped to doing say 400%+200 damage, critting at our constant rate wouldn't be deemed acceptable; or if you reverse it, with the current insane critrate, our finishers might not be touched at all simply because it would go off to much and there wouldn't really be enough time to revamp. I rather have things done more throughly than patch after patch to a festering wound. ~
That one style is largely so incomplete and has so little to offer compared to others at 50 is an issue. All monks do generally a bit to low DPS (at 50 it's quite decent for two styles, Dragon really isn't one of them unless you're ideally grouped - and pre 50ies it's lacking all over).
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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2007, 12:04:31 PM »

I dont mind if they change Tiger form, but the probleme is that every one says nerf. nerf makes it less usefull and with the end penalty on it wouldnt make it that good. above that even if they did decrease the penalty but reduced every thing, at some point it wouldnt be that usefull. So to make it good all offensive stance of all monks should be able to DPS about that same, but each style gets there own type of bonus with the increase in dps an offensive gives with there own type of penalty.
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Leishiu
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2007, 12:11:52 PM »

I dont mind if they change Tiger form, but the probleme is that every one says nerf. nerf makes it less usefull and with the end penalty on it wouldnt make it that good. above that even if they did decrease the penalty but reduced every thing, at some point it wouldnt be that usefull. So to make it good all offensive stance of all monks should be able to DPS about that same, but each style gets there own type of bonus with the increase in dps an offensive gives with there own type of penalty.

Agreed - and no style should be nerfed because it's to overpowering to an other unless it's above it's intended point in the hierarchy (which I don't think we're in any risk of at the moment); rather reverse should the weaker styles be boosted in exchange.
The reason I use the term "nerf" (even with situation marks!) was that any modification except further change in endurance cost or increase of crit rate (which isn't quite likely ;p) would probably be considered a nerf even if the end result would be better (both from the aspect of what could happend to the monk and the actual power of the ability). It's usually easier to see the negative than the positive.
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2007, 12:26:34 PM »

 Grin
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Shengyi Tsung
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2007, 12:43:25 PM »

I would like to make a motion to fire the Devs at Sigil and hire Leishiu instead.

All those in favor say " I "

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Kyomi
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2007, 03:13:37 PM »

Great post and very interesting to read. I as a dragon monk in her 40s soon was always concerned about the finishers and how we actually compare to the other styles.

Thanks for posting this overview and I hope they can maybe adjust some of the issues we dragons already mentioned for quite a while now.

hehe oh and " I "
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Level 50 Dragon Monk - Infineum
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2007, 05:20:36 PM »

"I"
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Riot
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2007, 12:54:41 AM »

Eye.

Oh wait =/
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||| Riot ||| Tharridon ||| 46 Dragon Monk ||| Guild: Alarius |||
Ninbei
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2007, 07:54:15 AM »

Aye
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