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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Melee versus Spells damage. Offensive fighter versus Offensive caster.... « previous next »
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Author Topic: Melee versus Spells damage. Offensive fighter versus Offensive caster....  (Read 1648 times)
Azox
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2007, 05:16:06 AM »

Offensive casters should always do more damage than offensive fighters.  The balance in this is that casters wear cloth and can't take nearly so many hits as offensive fighters can.  They are the true "glass cannons."  They do a ton of damage, but they can't take the hits that we can when we draw aggro.  It's just the way light fighters and cloth casters always work.

I have to disagree with this and here's why. I have yet to ever hear in any group the casters calling out of mana unless its a long and i mean long drawn out fight. Plus with the game mechanics as they are almost all the casters have multiple types of crowd control which removes much of their risk of getting face to face with a mob if they're smart. I do believe that maybe outside of the rogue that SOME of the caster classes should always do more burst damage than light fighters. But over the course of a couple of hour grind the higher dps offensive fighters should be close to your top dps casters. My thinking is that a psi and necro should not really be out dpsing a dragon monk or rogue as they have alot more utility available to them.

One thing we have to keep in mind while talking about balancing is the fact that we have yet to see full blown raid content or real dynamic raid events for that matter. Unless you were one of the few select guilds back in 2.5 or whatever stage it was we really have no idea what effect the current state of the classes will have on those events. I honestly think that when the time comes for real raids and epic events that alot of classes will come into their own.
 
Now im not by any means saying the classes are perfect and they are starting to get them fleshed out but Id like to see some real raid content to get a gauge the state of class balance. After all for most raid content and high level epic group battle is the goal and so far we have really sen small time content for leveling and gearing out.
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Grom
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2007, 07:12:25 AM »

But raiding is only a part of the game. Classes need to have some sembelence of balance in normal day to day gaming. Not everyone wants to raid and all classes should not be built just for how they will perform against raid content
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Xaon
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2007, 08:31:50 AM »

And I suppose you can also continue to Nuke while tap-rooting?  I don't know about you, but as soon as I cast on my druid, I no longer regen mana.

And if you aren't casting while regening mana, you aren't generating any DPS.
Solo, as I get low mana I just refresh the snare, dots and run off to Taproot, by the time the mob gets to me I am pretty much full up and ready to go again.
Grouped much the same, but the mob should stay on the tank.

Yes you are right, no 'fresh' DPS while tapping, but it doesn't take long to get a ton of mana back.
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Fusoya
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2007, 10:22:56 AM »

Don't know if i would consider a druid an arcane caster atleast for balancing purposes. Their dps is very sub-par end game, one of the best dps till 40'ish. After 40 sorc / psi use thought pulse and whatever the sorc version of hp for dmg nuke is. With cleric alleviate on them, they can sustain a very decent pace of DPS at 0 mana cost. Yes, its a risky tactic, but deaths becomes a rarity once a healer/arcane get on the same page with how much is too much, they land constant 4k-10k nukes with 1sec cast times, no refresh...once again at almost no mana cost. Psi's have multiple mana feeds for the healers so its an ill scratch your back, you strach mine relationship. Sorc have bags full of summoned gems and rings to take care of themselves a bit more. With arcane having such low hp, the healing they require is very minor compared to the dps they are gaining from those abilities.

So unless the health nukes are cut down quite a bit (which would prob result in 1/2 the remaining psi/sorc's quitting) i think the new bar for DPS needs to be raised by a fair amount for melee across the board. Esp with mob learned abilities such as mummy wraps available to psi's (everyone with buff heals psi for a % of their dmg dealt) among other tools that significantly reduce the penalty of the health nukes.

I cant really see an arcane caster (minus druid) going OOM unless the fight lasts upwards of atleast 10-15 minutes. Druids definately need some love for end game, necro's...dont even need to be mentioned in balancing, if anything they set the standard. Psi's > Sorc for overall dps imo, unless the mobs have weakness to arcane/fire/ice, or no other dispeller is present (sor/blm/dk only dispellers atm, which needs to be fixed, or mob mitigation/avoidance buffs need to be nerfed heavily). In psi's defense, endgame their utility has been almost completely removed, missing gestalts for spells, and as many broken abilities as monks (except for buffs, which are very appreciated in groups).

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Khana Kopnisien
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2007, 10:27:45 AM »

Just got some rather disturbing info last night and today.

1) Bards get a DPS dance that increases as the fight continues on, their 'offensive stance'. While this is fine and it could be argued that ours also increases during the fight through the use of built-up Jin, we in fact vary much more in damage and hit a cap much sooner. If we're both meant to be doing better damage in long fights, is something not amiss here?

2) Apparently, sorcerers start dealing better constant damage after a few uses of one ability. I didn't catch a name of that ability, though. Is this not diametrically opposed to the statement that casters are supposed to deal better damage in short fights and NOT long fights? We all know mana regen is a joke and empty mana is easy to avoid. Does this not simply increase the gap?

3) A 31 BMG buddy of mine critted for 6000 on a nuke in a fight in Trengal Keep. When I asked what the regular damage was, he said 1200-1500. Now, for me to get that type of damage, I need to hit 2 specials, and they need to crit as well. To get 6k damage, I need to crit at least 4 times, on Thousand Fists. This is using the Bladestaff of Ages, maxed STR through att points, decent gear, maxed Bladed Staff skill, maxed 2HP, Secrets and Iron Hand on and Storm Dragon stance. The same goes for Dual Wielding 2 25 DPS weapons. That's awfully wrong for several reasons. One, they can tank as well as we can. Second, they can heal themselves and others. Third, they get AC and HP buffs, among others. Yet, their base DPS is better than ours, and I have to Goading Slap mobs at every opportunity I get, use almost every reactive that pops up and keep all my self buffs in check to out-aggro them. I even need to flip in whatever AE reactive and chain I can, to ensure I have aggro on multiple mobs.

The saying 'more DPS for more risk' simply does not stand for a few classes, among which necromancers (pets, FD, life taps), druids (snare, root, stun, run speed) and bloodmages (charm, heal, buffs, snare). On top of that, some of dev statements diametrically oppose the applied practice in abilities. Maybe what I'm experienced is limited to the early 30s range, maybe not. Maybe things will improve once I get to wear both my 30 DPS claws. I'd like to learn more. Could some higher level monks of varied styles reply to this?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 10:32:04 AM by Khana Kopnisien » Logged

Khana Kopnisien  /\  50 Dragon Monk  /\  Lowland Elites  /\  Halgar
Fusoya
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2007, 01:40:03 PM »

1) Bard dps dance isnt really noticable, big claims little to show for it as none of their abilities scale properly with levels. Having a bard in the group at lvl 10 is god-mode compared to the utility a bard provides at 50. Bards need loving pretty badly as well.
Dances increase in power the longer it is maintained, not per fight/mob like rangers/rogues. As long as they stick with one dance, it can stay at maximum effectiveness. With that said...all the other light fighters have an ability of this sort, minus monks. Jin = energy bar + battle bar?...hardly, need some compensation there imo.

2) Pretty sure you are refering to the hp nukes I mentioned above. Each time they use it, the damage amplifies itself. Once a sorc gets this damage high enough they can mimic that spell for an insanely amplified amount of damage (how they reach the 50k+ crits). 14k crits un-amplified are achievable by both sorc and psi's with some decent focus gear, once again only at the cost of health =P.

3) Blood mage is the developer favorite class. Not worth trying to compete with one =P. They are currently the best healers, one of the highest dps, and pages and pages of utility.
Healing class with counterspell, dispell, heals, nukes, drain lifes, charms, invisiblity, DoT's, and blood pact...
Next patch, their dps will be dramatically increased as blm in healer form is calculated lowest dps in game (this form reduces dmg by 50%).
Transfer hp > mana ability will be tripled in effectiveness.
More finishers added, and buffing current finisher.
Not worth mentioning them, they are in a game of their own.

These are some of the reasons we're all her posting Khana. We're one of many broken classes currently, just waiting for our love. Hope I answered some of your questions regarding the mentioned abilities/classes.
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