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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Fix Feign! « previous next »
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Author Topic: Fix Feign!  (Read 3710 times)
Fusoya
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2007, 02:57:02 PM »

I've made posts regarding how to get the mobs you want. Need to take the tips and apply them as every zone / mob / layout is slightly different, but after 1-2 pulls in each area you can usually figure it out. Think outside the box.

I don't want to spell it out for everyone, as I think it should require some skill. If you are told exactly how to do it, it proves nothing of the players skill other then they can follow directions. Any specific questions I will be more then happy to answer in game or through personnal messages. I would like to see more monks explore their class, sorry if this rubs people the wrong way. I encourage the community to test and explore with the tools they have available. I don't want to keep the info to myself, I just want to have some effort put forth before the secret is reveiled.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 03:03:07 PM by Fusoya » Logged
Dalrock
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2007, 04:04:10 PM »

Mobs shouldn't be camping you while FD and this portion of FD is broken.  They should immediately run back every time, no matter how many mobs are in the group.

As far as FD failing several times Sareena,  it will definately fail like that when you are lvl 24 and the mobs are 29-30, no matter how far you distance yourself from them. This doesn't mean FD is broken,  it has always had the chance to fail and increases as the mob level increases.

We are not the only class meant to be pullers.  Several classes have "LULL" type spells that work fairly well and used to work extremely well before they fixed it.  Now those classes have a chance to get resisted and pull a train of mobs on them and their groups.  Monks don't have that issue as much since we get FD.  This makes for a fair playground imo.

There is also another way of currently pulling singles consistently out of any group,  be it 2 mobs or 6 mobs as a monk.  This however may change once a fix is put in for the currently broken FD camp issue but atleast we can single pull again as it stands right now and it feels GREAT!

As far as dps goes,  I still don't parse myself or my groups so I really don't know where we stand right now.  All I can say is that I consistently pull aggro off anyone with just my dps alone.  I do it everyday and in every group unless the tank is several levels higher than me and can hold aggro great.  I even put our goading slap 3 on them which is another 1600 hate and I still pull aggro.  Sorc, Necro, and Rangers are about the only other classes I see doing this very often but I tend to do it the most and without even trying.  This has to be a good thing and shows me that we definately have some exceptional dps to some point. Giving us more dps without any other kinda of deaggroing abilities will make things much more difficult to say the least.  I already find myself spamming goading slap 3 on the tank and using FD numerous times per fight sometimes.  Maybe it's how I play my monk,  current gear setup, and those sorts of things...........I've no idea what it is but it happens everyday.  By no means am I say that we don't need any dps changes because I honestly just don't have the numbers for that,  but I can say that I'm happy with my monk on a personal basis.

I like that DPS we deliver thing, cracks me up =D

REPLYS ARE IN ORANGE.

Thanks Smiley  I do try to add some humor in the mix.

For the record, when my necro was 24ish (either 23, 24 or 25) his FD had little to no problem against mobs lvl 29-30.  Not sure what kind of statement this makes, just saying i either did not fail or failed a maximum of twice and therefore had no problems preventing wipes with a necro.  Necro fd is better???

Disciples seem to have a better chance to FD than monks too, but they can't FD every second either.  Maybe it is class specific, who knows but mine generally works well.  I get tons and tons of first try FD's,  even on mobs higher level than me.

If by fair you mean the classes that can out DPS us and out utility us can also pull better than us then yes, it sounds fairly LAME.  Why the hell should like paladins, clerics, druids get lull?  Druid lull isn't even supposed to work on most mobs (but it does).  Bards don't need lull, they have EVERYTHING else.  Psi i can see them as plausible lullers, but still, lull is passed around to too many classes and is far too powerful a pulling tool to ever allow for the monk to be a sought after class for his pulling abilities.  I still dont' get how that single pull FD (exploit?) is working, but i also haven't been able to get a group for over a week.  BTW, im sure FD fails a lot more than lull does too......  anyone with half a brain maxes out the spell school for lull so they have 95% chance to work.

Lull doesn't stick like it used to.  I see classes getting trains of mobs on them all the time when their lull fails.  Have you tried lulling mobs in lets say.....Rahz Inkur?  Good luck with ANY CC in that place.  Monks are best pullers there for sure.  So far,  the only mobs I've seen that you can even CC on are the cyclops.  I could honestly care less about other classes getting lull type abilities and us not.  I'll be the one on the ground FD'd while they are training mobs from a failed lull, or over aggro,  or because they get one-shotted in their lame-robed, no armor'd selves,  when the group gets one too many adds or a bad pull,  and so on...the monk will live to save the day almost every time.  I'm rezzing healers, dragging corpses, using soaring leap and invis to get just about anywhere I friggin want to with ease and so on....other classes get lull skills?  Who gives a crap?  Not me.

Again, not sure how you manage this, but i haven't really messed around with it either.  Is it an exploit or not?  I realy would like to be a puller, but i dont' want to exploit.

Invis + body pull.  FD and presto-magico! you have a single pull everytime.  Ofcourse I'm talking about mobs that see invis here.  Similar tactics work in other areas but you can figure it out I'm sure.

I don't think goading slap actually works........It just seems that when i pull aggro, or someone else does, 800 or 1600 hate would be enough to make it turn around back to the tank, but it never does.  Any verification that this move actually does anything?  Necros can out parse us with 4 of their dots + pet super easily.  Necro pets hit as hard as our finishers do i believe.  Rare grafts FTW  Cry  We definately need some DPS + deaggro i totally agree with you there.  What style are you btw?  I hear the drunken style extra 2 finishers are pretty sweet, that could be the whats tipping your DPS scale to the "exceptional" place.  Otherwise i think you should just parse and find out for real, hehe.

I use goading slap all the time and yes it does work.  No it's not the all save ability but it does help alot.  Every bit of hate you can give your tank, even when he has aggro currently will help to keep the aggro on him permanently.  This is a utility skill that is used throughout the encounter,  not solely for a one-shot save all thing,  but I have seen it work many times when lets say.......sorc gets aggro. I pop this ability with the tank targetted and alot of times it goes back to the tank.  I'm sure he's taunting also but an extra 1600 hate towards him will help get aggro back faster.  If it's still on the sorc,  then switch target to the sorc and pop your waning palm and it should definately drop aggro by then. You can do all this within a second or two if you are fast and just prey that the robe wearing sorc lives thru it. Smiley

I'm a Dragon Monk, level 46.  I will need to install and start parsing my dps to check but I'm only saying that I never get complaints in my groups about my dps.  I always have to FD off aggro because I'm consistently taking it from doing my dps only.  I'm always pulling for my groups unless we have a bard and even then I still pull when in Rahz Inkur zone because the bard can't lull stuff there.  I tend to use handwraps the most due to the increased crit rate i get from them, but also use 2-hb or 2hs staff a lot too.



« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 04:08:09 PM by Dalrock » Logged

Soluss
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2007, 06:29:12 AM »

Quote

Is it an exploit though?   They know what the problem is but choose not to fix it.  If it were an exploit, they would fix it.

And besides, we can single pull mobs the way FD is, at least it gives us some reason to pull sometimes versus the bard or cleric. (cleric lull, wth is that about)

If you are talking about jumping in the air and then FD'in to manipulate how some aggro mechanics work in the game so that you get your solo mob....yes that is considered an exploit.

If you are talking about pull like 4 mobs so that 1 always camps you because you are manipulating the game mechanics...yes that is an exploit.

Im not talking about the other version of spliting 1 of 2 mobs using nerve strike thats not an exploit.
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Soluss
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2007, 06:31:23 AM »

I've made posts regarding how to get the mobs you want. Need to take the tips and apply them as every zone / mob / layout is slightly different, but after 1-2 pulls in each area you can usually figure it out. Think outside the box.

I don't want to spell it out for everyone, as I think it should require some skill. If you are told exactly how to do it, it proves nothing of the players skill other then they can follow directions. Any specific questions I will be more then happy to answer in game or through personnal messages. I would like to see more monks explore their class, sorry if this rubs people the wrong way. I encourage the community to test and explore with the tools they have available. I don't want to keep the info to myself, I just want to have some effort put forth before the secret is reveiled.

The secret exploit?
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Fusoya
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2007, 07:57:31 AM »

Exploiting is using game mechanics to perform a task other then as intended, my view is FD is supposed to be used for split pulling. If FD pulling was truely an exploit available to multiple classes, an emergency patch would have been released either removing the ability or fixing it, atleast temporarily.

It's ridiculous to say that pulling as a monk vs mobs who are immune to stun/mez is an exploit. It has nothing to do with jumping and timing an aerial FD, I don't even see how that would affect anything anyways =P. Nor is it the 65m rule or whatever rumor I've heard of some long range FD trick working either. It's a simple setup formula that requires some thought and imo skill. Every set of mobs is slightly different, every zone, every situation. It is not a /win button. It still requires adaptation and invention with every pull.

I simply use the tools given to me to perform my role as puller.

'The secret exploit?' - Don't appreciate attempts to attack each other man, as it accomplishes nothing. Lets stick to the high road, our class has enough problems without fighting amongst ourselves. Less time flaming more time learning how to pull imo =P
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Dena
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2007, 09:50:10 AM »

If your secret is agro 4 mobs so 1 stays, it's hardly a secret or skill based for that matter.  In fact in it's current form it is certainly not as skillful as it was in any other game.

You seem fairly full of yourself, Fusoya.  You do realize this isn't the way it's supposed to work.  It's considered a broken component of the game and from all accounts is planned on being fixed.  My point is sooner rather than later.Then we don't have to deal with this silly mechanic and we can become what we are truly meant to be and that is the main pullers unlike now where in every situation I've been in, clerics, psi's, bards, druids all can pull better/faster than we can.
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Jaxinor
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2007, 11:08:05 AM »

Maybe fusoya means where you train a group of mobs, someone peels one off, then you keep running a bit and FD.  That works well also, don't think anyone mentioned that.
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Fusoya
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2007, 12:34:57 PM »

It has to do with ranged pulling, body pulling, number of mobs, direction of pull, order of aggro, order of pulled mobs.
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2007, 12:35:23 PM »

Any class with a decent runspeed or runspeed buff can manage that just as easy.
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Soluss
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2007, 12:39:52 PM »

It has to do with ranged pulling, body pulling, number of mobs, direction of pull, order of aggro, order of pulled mobs.

Apparently you are the only posting VG monk that has figured out the uber leet skills it takes to single out mobs in any situation that doesnt involve an exploit.  Cudos to you but FD is still not working as intended.  It has been stated by brad, it has been stated by talisker.  I am glad that you are 1 of maby 4 monks that like the way it is but the majority do not.
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Shengyi Tsung
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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2007, 01:20:41 PM »

It has to do with ranged pulling, body pulling, number of mobs, direction of pull, order of aggro, order of pulled mobs.

Apparently you are the only posting VG monk that has figured out the uber leet skills it takes to single out mobs in any situation that doesnt involve an exploit.  Cudos to you but FD is still not working as intended.  It has been stated by brad, it has been stated by talisker.  I am glad that you are 1 of maby 4 monks that like the way it is but the majority do not.

First of all, i'd like to thank Dalrock for his very informative and helpful post, thanks mate!  Wink

Secondly, why are you guys abusing Fusoya?  he/she is a 50 drunken monk and i believe deserves a little more respect than the way you guys are acting.  Fusoya doesn't have to log in and post anything or her experiences and has even told me of reservations because of flamer tendency.  I would ask some of you to be a bit more civil and perhaps pay a little more attention to some of the other posts.

I could be wrong but i believe Dalrock has discovered these uber leet skills that you speak of, and im sure there are others.  I just think that you should be a little more respectful to your fellow monks who are NOT your enemy here.  None of us have enemies, just over worked devs trying to get everything fixed.

I for one applaud Fusoya for not sharing the uber leet skills and forcing monks to sit down and think (which is kind of a good perspective for the monk class wouldn't you agree) instead of just blurting out the technique.  If you do not have the patience to actually try to learn different styles and techniques then i hardly can see placing the blame on Fusoya as the next logical step. 

Thanks for your patience and understanding, take some deep breaths if you get frustrated or angry and calm down.

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Quinn the Mighty
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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2007, 02:08:59 PM »

I am familiar with Fusoya's guild and I have no doubt in my mind that he is out on the edge of what can and can't be done in game atm. Not everyone posts strats.

Simple truth is that FD is borked and it will be fixed eventually.

And for the record, no I am not in BoW.  laugh

~QTM
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Fusoya
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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2007, 04:14:24 PM »

I appreciate the posts QTM and Shengyi, i am not trying to keep the secrets to myself, im trying to help you help yourselves become better players. I've spent countless hours and countless deaths thinking about how I can improve my role as a puller. I encourage others to spend some time looking in to the mechanics of pulling as now you know it is possible and not just time spent chasing your tail. It's discouraging to get flamed for not wanting to post a spoiler about every aspect of the class because some are frustrated with their monks.

I'm sorry if my posts come off as cocky or rubbing the fact i found out how to pull...my intentions are none other then trying to get monks to explore the pull system.

Keep in mind a game is a program, every program is calculations, even random is not so random. Once you experiment different situations you learn how to lower the chances of that 'random' to almost nothing.

They keys are:
-ranged aggro
-social aggro
-body pulls
-breaking the equation of mob set spawns
-order of initial mob aggro and proximity to you

Once again, these rules change per situation but once you get the basics down you will be able to adapt to the situations in 2-3 attempts. Also keep in mind this is using the lvl 46 FD which has 0sec cooldown, which helps cut down on deaths apon failures.
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Caus
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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2007, 05:05:29 PM »

  ok, I'm willing to try some more.  What are you calling a body pull.....just proximity aggro pulling?
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Dena
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2007, 07:01:19 PM »

I'm familiar and have always used ranged aggro, social aggro,  proximity aggo pulling and order of initial agro.  How you can tell me that you can split 2 or 3 mobs in close proximity without using nerve strike in an enclose environment is beyond me.  Especially since it's faster/better than lull apparently.

You do realize that it was normal for the first part of this game and was changed when they were trying to fix ghosting right?

It's not that I want a spoiler,  I just have a hard time believing you.  Especially how it's faster and easier than lulling.
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