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Topic: Higher level Drunken Monks? (Read 2251 times)
Chunli
Grandmaster
Karma: +12/-4
Posts: 121
Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
on:
April 03, 2007, 08:20:55 AM »
Someone should step forth and make a thread to let us know bugs/issues/etc this path holds. I am sure there are plenty of young Drunken Monks out there wondering about them.
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Chunli (RETIRED)
50 Kojani Dragon Monk
Tharridon server
Quote
And Monks are BAD A$$
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Darrin Mcpherson
Senior Game Designer
Sigil Online Games
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Dragon Monk Bugs
Teno
Desciple
Karma: +2/-0
Posts: 25
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #1 on:
April 03, 2007, 09:07:26 AM »
I was Drunken Mastery from 15 to 29. Two days ago I switched to Dragon. My only advice to any drunken monk is to switch out asap, lol. The warrior that i usually duo with even noticed the substantial increase in dps coming from my side. Where when i was drunken, the "utility" or lack of it on this path does not compare to the amount of dmg that can be done with dragon.
Drunken monks get the same "force crit" jin based attack as dragons, though the dragons ability does more dmg.... why?
The Jeering Kick 2 round taunt is nice.... but you can do that with a few ashen hands and FD.
The only one that i saw at 29 that was usefull was the AOE 5 round taunt. That saved some people, but usually got me killed, so I never really did it in pugs, lol.
The end doesn't justify the means when compareing Drunken Mastery with the other paths. I can see a use for the Dragon stances, the add dmg stance without taking a penalty, the increased health regen for out of combat, makes you solo faster, less down time, and the stone skin form, great for soloing, with at least descent rewards to the 20% slower attacks.
They try to lower the drunkens dmg output to increase is utility in the group, but his only utility is the ability to take a hit, when atm he can't. Thats my biggest gripe on the drunken, with the evasion hit, the drunken style monk can't perform his "job" as the "off tank" which if givin taunts you become a tank or a variation of one.
Logged
Quinn the Mighty
Monk Lead
Kyoshi
Sensei
Karma: +50/-38
Posts: 443
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #2 on:
April 03, 2007, 09:38:14 AM »
I know Jojo was high 40s dont know if she switched styles though. Me playing a level 50 Drunk monk on test is good for testing solo tactics exploits and such, but due to sparse population its really hard to get a group there to test certain mechanics.
Calling Jojo....
=P
~QTM
edited for gender confusion =P
«
Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 12:40:29 PM by Quinn the Mighty
»
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Zend
Desciple
Karma: +4/-1
Posts: 25
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #3 on:
April 03, 2007, 10:01:53 AM »
Quite honestly, I don't know why anyone would want to be a higher level drunken monk. In it's current form the Drunken Style offers absolutely no benefit and very little to differentiate this style from the others. As a matter of fact, from a broad perspective this style offers less than the other two.
There are two factors that make the Styles what they are: Stances and Mastery Abilities. Since drunken monks share all other abilities, they also share all of the general monk bugs, issues, and concerns.
Drunken Style Stances
This was beat to death in another thread and hardly warrants any further discussion as far as I'm concerned. All of the Drunken Style stances are largely worthless, offering very little if any benefit. Most drunken monks fight from their mastery stance (or fist stance if solo), simply because it provides the least amount of penalty for being in a stance.
Drunken Mastery Abilities
Drunken monks are masters of...whatever...somebody pour me another drink.
I pulled this list from an SV post by Jojo. You'd think that drunken mastery abilities would be a mixed bag of agro management, defensive tricks, and a few wild attacks. Instead we earn these:
15 -
Jeering Kick I - small damage, taunt for 2 attacks
Staggering Punch I - small damage, applies 'stagger' weakness
18 -
Spinning Fists I - small damage, autocrit
22 -
Staggering Punch II
26 -
Foolhardy Swagger - ae taunt for 5 hits
Jeering Kick II
30 -
Staggering Punch III
Clumsy Whirl I - dodge counter ability - weapon + ae
32 -
Spinning Fists II
34 -
Lurching Feint I - costs jin, makes the mob not attack for 2(?) seconds and gives next shot some percentage to crit. I haven't really noticed the stop attacking bit.
36 -
Foolhardy Swagger II
Jeering Kick III
38 -
Clumsy WhirlII
Errant Strikes - useless, gives you a buff for 1 minute that will apply all attacks to both your target and your defensive target's target. REUSE- one HOUR, and sometimes does absolutely nothing, not applying the buff.
Staggering Punch IV
Impossible Drunken Palm I - chain finisher, does less than Thousand Fists, maybe more than Flying Kick
42 -
Lurching Feint II
Drunken Arms of the Cyclone - adv chain finisher after Impossible Drunken Palm, does less damage than it.
46 -
Magnificent Drunken Stagger (our equivalent to Dragon Monk's invis/lev) Dodge all attacks for 15 seconds, REUSE- 30 MINUTES.
Legedary Fists I - Third finisher after Thousand Fists/Thundering Fists
Foolhardy Swagger III
Clumsy Whirl III
Jeering Kick IV
Staggering Punch V
I would like to see a mastery ability added that when pressed makes us vomit while shouting, "Whoopty friggin' ding dong!"
--------------
My biggest concern for Drunken Monks is that there will be no clear benefit to being one. We currently are not the best at anything compared to the other styles (or classes for what it's worth). There is nothing that a drunken monk can offer that another style or class can't do better. Neither our stances nor mastery abilities reflect our evasive nature or path of "deception and unseen" power we are supposedly travelling on.
If light fighter off-tanking is not a viable option, then there is very little point to this style. Our lack of evasion and agro management would make harmonious monks better suited to that task anyway. If melee damage is to be our role and priority, we are again outshined by the other two styles.
Given that monks are already paper tigers, I can not see anything that the drunken style brings to the table worth swallowing.
Logged
tr4120
Recruit
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 6
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #4 on:
April 03, 2007, 11:03:01 AM »
You know looking at the stances:
Drunken (using pre-30 stats):
10% damage, 25% more aggro
10% haste, 5% dodge
10% dodge, -5% accuracy (yeah this one sucks - drunken are supposed to dodge and counterattack, not dodge and miss)
I'm always in the first (I tank for a duo/trio and offtank in my guild groups)
I only use the second when I don't want aggro in groups.
I've only used the third in conjuction with a windblade and reed in the wind when things get really bad (not often).
Considering the lack of good taunts a monk gets, why is the first stance so bad? IF you do off tank (which I do, and I tank for myduo/ trio) it helps a TON in holding aggro for me (vs harmonius in tiger or dragon in storm). More evasion + more aggro would not be better as this would be harder to hold aggro.
I think evasion may be hard to balance for monks to be honest.. how much is too much? You have all the +parry jewerly you can wear, and a windblade gives a nice buff, if you then give drunken monks say 20-30% base more avoidance then they can reach a really high number.
I'd like to see some ideas that aren't just "OMG add more evasion kthx!"
Maybe Drunken needs to center more around dehibiliating counter attacks (or normal attacks) that ALLOW you or others to tank more effectivley. The problem is this infringes some on harmonius. Maybe some ideas like:
(I don't think these are that great, but I'd like some ideas tossed out)
Alcohol Spit - Attack - You spit your drink in your opponents eyes causing their accuracy to be lowered by X%. (SODA POPENSKI!)
Nerve gouge (stun) - Counter Attack - you dodge and strike at opponents pressure point, causing them to lose control for Xs (stun)
Liver shot - Counter attack - you hit the opponents liver makign it harder for him to defends himself allowing incoming attacks to do more damage.
Limb Fracture - Attack - You target an oponnents limbs lowering damage by X (stacks with quivering palm)
Give drunken monks the ability to counter spells like a melee - counterspell? That would be huge.
Like I said, not great ideas but throw out some innovative stuff, not please dump more evasion!
Sorry I'm rambling lunch break at work and trying to throw ideas out.
«
Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 11:07:59 AM by tr4120
»
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Surface
Recruit
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 7
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #5 on:
April 03, 2007, 11:52:31 AM »
Quote from: Zend on April 03, 2007, 10:01:53 AM
34 -
Lurching Feint I - costs jin, makes the mob not attack for 2(?) seconds and gives next shot some percentage to crit. I haven't really noticed the stop attacking bit.
36 -
Foolhardy Swagger II
Jeering Kick III
38 -
Clumsy WhirlII
Errant Strikes - useless, gives you a buff for 1 minute that will apply all attacks to both your target and your defensive target's target. REUSE- one HOUR, and sometimes does absolutely nothing, not applying the buff.
Staggering Punch IV
Impossible Drunken Palm I - chain finisher, does less than Thousand Fists, maybe more than Flying Kick
42 -
Lurching Feint II
Drunken Arms of the Cyclone - adv chain finisher after Impossible Drunken Palm, does less damage than it.
46 -
Magnificent Drunken Stagger (our equivalent to Dragon Monk's invis/lev) Dodge all attacks for 15 seconds, REUSE- 30 MINUTES.
I find errant strike very useful its a better celerity. Make sure you are your own defensive target and go to town adds about 1k per hit (e.g a little under 3k for thousand fists one strike for each hit/3hits). Use Ashen Hand and thousand fists.
As to being a drunken monk -- I'm fine with it but I duo with a paladin a lot -- so I pull aggro with jeering kick or the aoe and he rescues me for mega damage.
The level 46 stance is silly though
Logged
tr4120
Recruit
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 6
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #6 on:
April 03, 2007, 11:57:49 AM »
Quote
I find errant strike very useful its a better celerity. Make sure you are your own defensive target and go to town adds about 1k per hit (e.g a little under 3k for thousand fists one strike for each hit/3hits). Use Ashen Hand and thousand fists.
I was really curious about that one.. I thought it would be insanely nasty if it worked like that.
Logged
Jaxinor
Master
Karma: +2/-2
Posts: 59
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #7 on:
April 03, 2007, 12:19:20 PM »
Quote from: Quinn the Mighty on April 03, 2007, 09:38:14 AM
I know Jojo was high 40s dont know if he switched styles though. Me playing a level 50 Drunk monk on test is good for testing solo tactics but due to sparse population its really hard to get a group there to test certain mechanics.
Calling Jojo....
=P
~QTM
Jojo is a girl, careful killer! She's lvl 50 so she should know what's up. I play on the same server as her, I'll tell her to stop being lazy.
Logged
*Jaxinor thinks your kung fu is weak*
Quinn the Mighty
Monk Lead
Kyoshi
Sensei
Karma: +50/-38
Posts: 443
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #8 on:
April 03, 2007, 12:38:47 PM »
Where's that pesky open mouth and insert foot smiley.... this'll do for now
I sent
her
a PM over on the SV site
I'll edit this before she gets here muahahahahahahaha
~QTM
Logged
Perigee
Recruit
Karma: +1/-0
Posts: 8
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #9 on:
April 03, 2007, 02:37:30 PM »
I'm pretty sure I remember Jojo saying she thinks Disciples need like 10x more DPS and even MORE medium armor drops and weapons with healer stats because they're so sexy. Please listen to her devs.
You dont need to PM her by the way, she knows all.
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Shengyi Tsung
Grandmaster
Karma: +5/-8
Posts: 197
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #10 on:
April 03, 2007, 03:36:52 PM »
Quote from: Teno on April 03, 2007, 09:07:26 AM
I was Drunken Mastery from 15 to 29. Two days ago I switched to Dragon. My only advice to any drunken monk is to switch out asap, lol.
Dude you can tell drunken monks to swap out, last time i listed the bugs i found for the style i got flamed! Someone flame him! No fair!
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jojo
Master
Karma: +7/-3
Posts: 91
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #11 on:
April 03, 2007, 04:03:18 PM »
Quote from: Perigee on April 03, 2007, 02:37:30 PM
I'm pretty sure I remember Jojo saying she thinks Disciples need like 10x more DPS and even MORE medium armor drops and weapons with healer stats because they're so sexy. Please listen to her devs.
You dont need to PM her by the way, she knows all.
Oh, I agree Perigee! Disciples need more dps and uh everythign else...as long as youre still in my group you can get beefed up to godliness
Logged
jojo
Master
Karma: +7/-3
Posts: 91
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #12 on:
April 03, 2007, 04:13:40 PM »
Quote from: Shengyi Tsung on April 03, 2007, 03:36:52 PM
Quote from: Teno on April 03, 2007, 09:07:26 AM
I was Drunken Mastery from 15 to 29. Two days ago I switched to Dragon. My only advice to any drunken monk is to switch out asap, lol.
Dude you can tell drunken monks to swap out, last time i listed the bugs i found for the style i got flamed! Someone flame him! No fair!
Sorry, I didn't mean to flame you, you didn't list any bugs for the style tho, you just said we were borked and useless and evryone should switch. I was first 50 monk on my server, and I love teh style. BUT this is why. I am main tank for my static group. There is nothing glaringly wrong with Drunken Style IF you want to be a defensive offensive fighter. I personally didnt start a monk to be the tank, i wanted to hang back and dps and pull etc. But our static defenisve fighter lagged behind in levels due to school so I stepped up. I've tanked all the content we've gone thru since level 20. This has included grey 2 dots up to purple 6 dots. I can handle all that we've seen inside Rhaz Inkur (the highest itemized area known in game atm) and I am having a blast so far doing it. The reason I havent posted such a long list of bugged Drunken Style is because well....I'm afraid they will take away my taunts lol. So I suggest to anyone that doesn't plan on tanking/off-tanking, yeah Drunken Style prolly isn't for you. But I've been able to keep aggro consistantly off of a Chaos Volley Spamming Sorcerer, an ae pulling cleric, a training shaman, and a dps psi. It takes a while for healers to learn how to heal an avoidance tank, but mine have mastered it and it's been so fun that I'd rather be in game playing than here posting a long list.
However I guess I should soon, so I'll take some time tonight to do it
edit: here it is:
http://www.vanguardmonks.com/option,com_smf/Itemid,27/topic,612.0/
«
Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 11:17:24 PM by jojo
»
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Irah
Recruit
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 3
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #13 on:
April 03, 2007, 05:03:16 PM »
I have to second what Jojo's experiencing. I run mainly with my brother and sister-in-law, who play a warrior and a boodmage, respectively. Usually, we pick up three random group-fillers, and go off adventuring. I've found my Drunken style monk to be very effective at 28-29th as a backup tank and emergency distractor. Occasionally, the bloodmage, a necro, or a sorceror will grab agro while the warrior is busy dealing with adds, and I'm able, via the Jeering Kick and Foolhardy Swagger abilities, to pull the mobs off of them long enough for the warrior to reestablish agro. Also, the mez is a wonderful tool for add and multiple pull management (but I *think* all monks get Nerve Strike, right?). Also, FD allows me to shake the mobs off of me once the Warrior has control of them.
So, I do look at myself as having a bag of tricks that include agro management, defensive tricks, etc.
I did, about 4 levels backs, consider switching to Harmonious (for the crit chance stance), but gave up on that idea when I found out the quest involved going to Tanvu AND Cai'Brael, both of which are not very fond of Orcs. The idea of spending a while leveling of faction didn't sound appealing at the time.
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Shengyi Tsung
Grandmaster
Karma: +5/-8
Posts: 197
Re: Higher level Drunken Monks?
«
Reply #14 on:
April 03, 2007, 06:52:33 PM »
To Irah
I also am an orc who switched from dragon style to harm style. You can do the harm style quest without faction adjusting IF you're careful. There is only one part where faction will play a part, just make sure you can run fast, because FD won't work. I don't know who the hell thought it was a good idea to make the cael brael wood elf area like the only place with lvl 50 6 dot guards, because thats really stupid and lame and if they catch up to you when you're running hte quest you're toast.
To Jojo
Yeah again im sorry about dissing the drunken style without giving it a chance. honestly i think it has lots of potential and great taunting abilities, but lacks the defensive ability to really make it stand out and the DPS is kinda low. If they gave you guys a boosted defense bonus i would definately take a serious look at switching to drunken style. I actually wanted to play it because i think drunken fighting is the coolest martial art ever, but i can't stand getting beat down fast which is what my experience has been tanking. I can do it ok as a harm style, but i can't keep aggro due to crap DPS (even in tiger stance its tough) and i have to go balls to the wall str debuff to keep from dying in 3 hits, and i've got like 1500-1600 armor unbuffed and easily over 4k hp unbuffed (i think). I really really wish the devs would get on the ball and fix our class and all the styles so we can spend more time playing and less time on the boards trying to get fixes. What irks me is the offensive stance the +dam and +hate doesn't have any defensive bonus. That has to be the stupidest idea ever. I want to slap silly whoever thought that was a good idea. Are they trying to "balance" the defesnive style by making all of his stances either half defense half offense and the "defensive" stance only has what 13% dodge? WTF! it should have 20% dodge 20% parry and 25% hate generation, offensive should be just 15% damage bonus (maybe an increased end cost, MAYBE) and i dont even remember what the middle one does. All drunken attacks should get a damage increase moderate to high across the board IMO. Bleh, im getting so tired of proposing fixes, i just wish they would sit down and fix everything already.
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