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September 06, 2008, 10:10:44 PM

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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Harmonious Issues (2nd may). « previous next »
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Author Topic: Harmonious Issues (2nd may).  (Read 9222 times)
Leishiu
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2007, 03:47:59 AM »

Tiger stance wont really affect normal strikes (bug?) faik, but since crits along with bladestaff makes up a wierd multiplication it might be better to fight outside to make decent comparsion.
And yea, Ashen Hand with a two-hander is way better than Flying Kick; the diffrence is I suppose that Flying is tied to the kick skill, which appears to have a diffrent critratio. Since Flying Kick don't scale with weapons like just about every other finisher, we be sad pandas in the endgame unless it starts doing it.
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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2007, 05:13:35 PM »

lets not forget about tiger form, that with 50% end cost = 50% less skill used meaning less chances to get crits off for finishers and all. So in some kind of sense for our +20% gives us a small bost of crit chance over the others.
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Vinjin
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2007, 09:32:22 AM »

lets not forget about tiger form, that with 50% end cost = 50% less skill used meaning less chances to get crits off for finishers and all. So in some kind of sense for our +20% gives us a small bost of crit chance over the others.

I've read this twice and I still can't figure out what you're trying to say. Can you perhaps clarify?
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Jengfu
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2007, 10:23:06 AM »

its simple, the only way to open up out finishers and all is by having a crit while using a skill. but if it cost 50% more end, then the result is 50% less chances to get crits off then if you didnt have it. Sure the crit boost is better then none but if you can fire off more skills with your end the more chances to get crits increases. It all ways happends where i have to wait for my end to regen befor i can use any of my skills.
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Leishiu
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2007, 10:44:51 AM »

its simple, the only way to open up out finishers and all is by having a crit while using a skill. but if it cost 50% more end, then the result is 50% less chances to get crits off then if you didnt have it. Sure the crit boost is better then none but if you can fire off more skills with your end the more chances to get crits increases. It all ways happends where i have to wait for my end to regen befor i can use any of my skills.

That assumes you have a non-recoverable resource - and since endurance do regenerate, this is not case. To be fair, you'll have to assume you can use Aum Ti aswell, which means only 30% more cost. Finishers deals more damage than boundless fist (only real damage ability harmonious has) and costs half the endurance, so a crit pays off in multiple ways.
Tiger stance does deal more DPS than Harmonious for example (except perhaps those cases where the RNG frowns - but there's a likewise amout of times it beams) over extended time.

All that said, with a cleric or bear shaman, the endurance penalty is trivialized anyhow.
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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
Vinjin
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2007, 03:33:36 PM »

its simple, the only way to open up out finishers and all is by having a crit while using a skill. but if it cost 50% more end, then the result is 50% less chances to get crits off then if you didnt have it. Sure the crit boost is better then none but if you can fire off more skills with your end the more chances to get crits increases. It all ways happends where i have to wait for my end to regen befor i can use any of my skills.

Well, you're making several assumptions here though, such as the rate of endurance depletion using specials versus simple crits, which happen on both auto-attack and special attacks. And while specials arguably have more bang for the buck than auto-attack does (finishers certainly do), there are several factors that could sway the impact of those crits one way or another in a fight, including the RNG.
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Jengfu
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2007, 06:56:03 PM »

it is true, but for the laishiu, not mather if you have fix end or regenerative end. In the end it stays the same my friend we have 50% less chances at a skill crit. using 2 times the same skill for a harm, others get a 3rd chance at a crit.
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Shengyi Tsung
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2007, 07:07:42 PM »

Im not sure if thats true.  It's been my experience that when i use a special attack in tiger stance (usually crescent kick) i get a finisher on just about every ability.  Then i do the finisher combs, during global refresh i'll get like one tick of regen, which regens most of the end i've spent in that little 3 hit combo.  I only run out of end in tiger stance if i use deadly adder or tiger claw, other than that i do not run out of end from spamming crescent kick an the finishers.  I rarely used boundless fist.
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Leishiu
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2007, 01:23:30 AM »

it is true, but for the laishiu, not mather if you have fix end or regenerative end. In the end it stays the same my friend we have 50% less chances at a skill crit. using 2 times the same skill for a harm, others get a 3rd chance at a crit.

Since Tiger stance has 2-3 times larger chance to score a critical hit (compared to the mere 50% endurance cost) it's still efficent to always pay off. The chance to score 3 successive crits without tiger is neligible - and you'll have to consider that for the same buck (ie endurance) another stance might get another swing off, the Tiger stanced monk is probably already using finishers - which does deal considerably more damage than most abilities (two-handed AH excepted - which again also gains quite the lot from the Tigers improved crit rate).
Due to global cooldowns and endurance being limited to 100, it's a lot of bang for the buck. Things might have been diffrent without the cooldown, another finisher system and an energylike pool (it was actually) - but with the current endurance pool & finisher production Tiger stance is extremely benefical.
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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2007, 10:18:36 AM »

Sheng whats the point of beeing a harm monk if you dont use thoese skills? forget about the stances, cause i chose monk from the start because of the buffs and debuffs abilities of the monk. So bascly your just a monk with a boost in crit thats it, wich is kind of lame imo.
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Vinjin
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2007, 10:40:08 AM »

Sheng whats the point of beeing a harm monk if you dont use thoese skills? forget about the stances, cause i chose monk from the start because of the buffs and debuffs abilities of the monk. So bascly your just a monk with a boost in crit thats it, wich is kind of lame imo.

Well for one, spamming specials too often minimizes the impact of a good weapon with a low delay. Aluul's Claws and it's 1.85 delay is a perfect example of this. I'd wager that at least in some instances while using that, relying more on auto-attack damage and less on spamming specials might actually produce a higher overall DPS. Finishers are probably always worthy of use when they're available but I'm not certain that spamming everything you got otherwise is the most effective way to use them otherwise.

Not to mention the side effect of always waiting for endurance to regen when spamming as well. That's not to imply that it takes a long time to regen endurance to full but it could potentially allow you to be more tactical with your specials.
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Shengyi Tsung
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2007, 11:29:36 AM »

Sheng whats the point of beeing a harm monk if you dont use thoese skills? forget about the stances, cause i chose monk from the start because of the buffs and debuffs abilities of the monk. So bascly your just a monk with a boost in crit thats it, wich is kind of lame imo.

say whaaaat?

I do use deadly adder hand and eagle claw, to open the fight.   But i dont spam them because they alst like 15-16 seconds so i will recast them once they go off, not every time they pop up.   I usually wait for deadly adder to go off so i get the damage from it then i recast it (it actually does decent damage so i use it every fight)  I of course use eagle claw and make sure it is ALWAYS on the mob, but it doens't cost a lot of end so why not.  I guess in my previous post i didn't clarify my tactics.

I open with eagle claw then immediately cast deadly adder.  While those are on i'll use only crescent kick and AH and Spam the finishers if they open up.  When deadly adder drops i reapply, same with eagle.  Rinse and repeat.  There's really not a whole lot of reason to do much else imo.  If i'm feeling frisky i'll use a secret but its not a whole lot of extra damage.  I'll use celerity if we fight a named.  I rarely run out of end with this strategy, if i do its probably because adder missed and i have to put it on.
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Jengfu
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2007, 03:54:23 PM »

sorry i made a mistake, i tought you never used them. secrets are usefull, when using skills they usely apear alot, and at lvl 32 monk there doing around 100-150 damage but i have yet to see a dot.
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Shengyi Tsung
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2007, 04:27:55 PM »

......or a stun =D
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Leishiu
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« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2007, 04:33:46 PM »

Diamond Body I and II needs some serious look at (don't even know what the diffrence is, tooltip dosen't tell any, and 30 minutes is way to much to bother checking as the mainfocus of the ability (curing) appears unchanged).
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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
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