I did read the rest of  the post, however...  due to the incesant KNEE-JERK Sigil reactions to things, a dev who reads that MAY, not read even choose to read further,  and even if he/she did, the fact that a MONK is posting that they have an overpowered ability cant really help us, can it?

You cant tell us that this one ability is the reason why we havent been revamped.

People are looking at the same issue with different viewpoints, which is completely valid (and thus why the discussion is good for the class). On the one hand, you could look at monks and say we have many abilities that need to be improved but only a few that work well enough to make us a worthwhile class to play. Based on numerous posts here, I think many players probably fall into this category, and rightfully so. After all, it's perfectly understandable to want to hold on to those few abilities that work well because there's little else to fall back on.

Another way to look at it though is from a more utopic perspective. If, and I stress that word again IF, monks get some of their issues resolved and other abilities improved such that players feel they bring a diverse set of functionality and benefit to the table without solely relying on one or two abilities alone, then the argument could be made that something like Tiger is probably a little overpowered with the high crit rate. I think this is probably the point that Leishiu is trying to make. Given that most harmonious monks seem to use Tiger stance almost exclusively, that alone should give at least some credence to the point too.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. I think it's simply a matter of perspective. If (there's that word again  ) we get word from the devs/QTM that they have specific items planned to improve us as a class, improvements that will actually make a difference, than I suspect less folks will have a problem with them touching Tiger. But until that time occurs, I'm inclined to agree that adjusting Tiger (read nerfing) is just not a wise idea at the moment by Sigil.

If we had comparable finishers to that of other offensive fighters has, Tiger would indeed be overpowering. Currently? It allows Harmonious to actually perform decently, where most other monks are falling behind. If we were to be upgraded, this is rather important to factor in.
And comparing 5% from ranger to 30% from a level 50 Tiger stance (which stacks) is bad. It's 6 times as potent.


At 40, it's a 30% penalty. With a cleric or bear shaman, you simply can't run out of endurance anyhow. It's only a disadvantage when you're using abilities that aren't based around doing damage (CC, deagros, reed the wind etc) but then you can actually switch stance to a -25% endurance stance (even though micromanagent is a pain).


Because of the design of monks - if you want to change that you need to see the entire picture (ie, if B was modified how would A and B now work. In essence, currently we have a very weak finisher, if they were upgraded to likewise stats as other offensive fighters, Harmonious would probably be the #1 melee DPS class due to being able to spam them pretty much all the time) not just the pieces that are actually currently being broken.

Tiger stance isn't overpowered all the other styles are borked.  If it was overpowered we would be parsing above other DPS classes.  Currently with tiger stance and a 71DPS weapon im not even matching any other DPS class, im just barely ahead of the curve against well equipped fighter classes.  If our finishers get adjusted so they actually deal decent damage(and im talking about flying kick, thousand fist line is fine EXCEPT it needs to scale) then with tiger stance we will probably at the least break even with the other DPS classes and we MIGHT parse higher than them, but i doubt it.  And damnit if we do parse higher well we deserve it because we have zilch utility compared to every other DPS class.  Rogues can even fricking evac now, lol.

I do have one question though.  Are my special attacks not taking into account my strength bonus?  Sometimes it seems my auto attack is higher than most of my specials, even the melee damage + 300 or whatever seem to be matching or barely above my auto attack.  I believe my auto attack picks up my strength bonus and thats why it hits so hard, but my abilities when they do not crit are more or less an out of rhythym auto attack.  i have about 425ish str unbuffed, i think i have a 412 melee bonus or something.  So my abilities should have +400 damage on top of what they read?  or how does that work?

Leishu is correct.  Tiger stance is somewhat overpowered, however, it is downplayed by the fact that monks don't do much damage to begin with.  If you think tiger stance is fine, go roll a dragon or drunken, and see how you operate without it.  The endurance costs become pretty negligible when you get aum ti, or are grouped with a bearshammy/cleric.  Furthermore, your going to be critting so often that you'll use finishers most of the time, which is only going to cost 10-15 endurance, and probably crit again.  Tiger stance is the sole reason monks can be competitive with other fighters.

I'm not trying to start a style war between monks or anything.  I just want to iterate that Leishu is making a very well-informed class balancing statement and people should take his post seriously.  Every monk needs love, a lot of love. 

Sidenote:  Does it seem silly to anyone else but me that harmonious get the most offensively oriented stance?  I thought they were supposed to be the midline/utilty style and tiger stance really doesn't fit that description to me.  Was just curious if anyone felt the same way?

I agree that Tiger stance is going to be overpowering IF monk skills were ever buffed up in-line with other offensive fighters.  HOWEVER this is a big IF.

QTM Please just make sure that ALL monk issues are resolved (ie bug issues, DPS issues and utility issues) BEFORE the Devs (Taliskar) even considers making changes to Tiger.

Judging from how things were done in the past, it is very likely that Tiger be "fixed" into giving only 10% extra crit for 50% more end cost, and then we recieve another 8dps boost in Iron Hands as "compensation".

On patch notes it would look like:
- Tiger Stance has its Critial chance slightly reduced
- Iron Hands has its damage significantly increased

And then every other class is going to think that we monks finally recieved our love.

They are. However, I've also noticed small deviances on special attacks.
The displayed damage on strength is when using a 2.10 (or something roughly like that I think, might be making things up now, but I made some calculations and it ended up slightly above 2.00 - however the deviance could easily be invisible bonuses to two-handed weapons.)
If you have a faster weapon, you'll hit less. If you have a slower weapon, you'll hit harder. At high 30, 1 str was pretty much 0.5 DPS (ie 1 str = +1 damage on speed 2.00 weapons, +1.5 damage on speed 3.00 weapons and so on) - this has does increase with levels though (which in contradiction to dexterity gives you larger return the higher you get instead of lesser) and I'll check it out next time I level (which will probably be some time!). This matters little on autoattack (since it adds DPS) but makes the world on specials as they aren't penalized by the delay (rather you're penalized for having fast weapons).

Why it's not beating your autoattack? Well, hmm, tricky question, but mitigation really eats up special attacks (unless you've got a debuffer - or is well, harmonious!) - a mob has about 20% regardless of it's class (even though they stated it would be spread out pending mob level, only hitpoints differ, one 15% mitigation debuff will not remove entire mitigation while a second (such as from a bard) will remove the rest - and the return from the second application is really low compared to the first, leading me to assume ~20% mitigation).
The other answer is that your weapons are to fast (fists are really bad itemized currently) - but that still wouldn't explain why you can't outdo autoattack.
I haven't used fists in ages, so can't comment on that - it feels totally right using two-handed though - specials really blows away autoattack.