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Harmonious Issues (2nd may).
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Topic: Harmonious Issues (2nd may). (Read 10525 times)
Leishiu
Sensei
Karma: +7/-6
Posts: 318
Harmonious Issues (2nd may).
«
on:
March 28, 2007, 04:24:05 PM »
Red colour means the issue/bug was entered into the last edit.
Since quite the lot of the minor issues were fixed, I've removed them to make the post easier to read.
Stances:
Harmonious Stances leaves no real complaints.
Visual Bug: Immortal Crane mouseover states damage -20% (and parry/block/dodge +20%). Icon and stat summary has no such indication of errant behavior however.
Major Issues:
General DPS. A general overhaul of all skills and abilities is in place. We were emergency fixed after LU#1, to operate fully functional, that badly needs to be reviewed and give us a release state on our abilities rather than a "uh, how much damage did you guys actually do before this LU?"-state.
Minor Issues:
Abilities
Wave Hand in Cloud
: Rank III (without taking the still rather aburd reuse of 20 minutes into account) deals a mighty 20 damage more than than the already to low single rank did at 26. 270 damage shield usable on yourself each 20 minutes for 20 seconds needs a sanity check, for real - we're an offensive fighter, having defensive after defensive ability (which even does a bad job at that) with offense abilities majorly ignored is bad.
Diamond Body
: Rank I and II needs some serious look at (don't even know what the diffrence is, tooltip dosen't tell any, and 30 minutes is way to much to bother checking as the mainfocus of the ability (curing) appears unchanged).
Find the Center
: Grants 100% block chance. Lovely, but monks don't have block.
General issues that interfere with Harmonious:
Iron Hand:
Duration is still to weak. Again, compare with the +84 melee damage BM's get that lasts an hour (and still has a rare component) and dosen't stack with Iron Hand.
Secret of Transcendance:
: Increase power, reduce cost. Or make it more in line of Ice/Flame as a third choice.
Related Bugs
Celestial Kick of the Masters I
: Gives 2 jin rather than 1.
Secret of Transcendance:
Lasts 1 minute. Tooltip states 20 seconds.
Secret of Celerity
: Unlike all other secrets, it creates a global cooldown. This means it eats up 2 of it's precious 20 seconds all by itself. Bad.
Update: Fixed on test
Jin gain:
Misses gives Jin. While good, it dosen't make real sense.
Jin use conflicts with Endurance regeneration:
Might be intended, but should be stated clear then (the orignial message was that only endurance abilities interfered with endurance regeneration, those tied energy (only other example given) would not.) If Jin offensive abilities are not supposed to conflict with Endurance regeneration, they need to be fixed to not doing so - if it's meant to conflict, we need to be told so.
Steal in the Wind:
Doesnt show up the damage - does spam it twice in the combat logs. But I am not even sure it does damage since when I use it I dont even see the hp bar go down. (From Jengfu)
Withering Palm:
Gives the buff even if the strike miss. I would assume (but can't confirm due to not really using since counterattacks aren't really used that much in groups etc) that Steal the Wind suffers from the same bug.
Deadly Adder Hand, Eagle Claw
: Each rank is stackable. This means, at level 50, a harmonious monk can apply nearly a -600 strength debuff (well 5 of them total) on a mob. This is
not
an issue localized to monks - at least bards can stack debuffs from diffrent ranks aswell.
«
Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 02:35:43 PM by Leishiu
»
Logged
Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
Jengfu
Desciple
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 29
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #1 on:
March 28, 2007, 04:47:10 PM »
Deadly Adder Hand: IMO i think the damage should be converted into a dot for the duration of the debuff, making it more usefull to keep up.
Wave Hand in Cloud: Same thing, timer should be cut down. and if you can cast it on an other it would make it higly more usefull for a tank to gain agro and keep it "mostly in multiple mob situation". And maybe change the damage to a sends half or more of the damage back to the target.
since im only lvl 29 i dont know of any other skills.
As for stance just need minor ajustments.
Just to point out, for thoese dragon monks that say there neutral stance doesnt do much, well ours even tought regen jin, well is useless to a certain extent. since it take 1min per jin and as you lvl up you gain more jin thus making it take even more min to fill up the jin bubble. so as of now it take 15min to fill up the jin meter.
Logged
Vinjin
Master
Karma: +3/-1
Posts: 97
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #2 on:
March 28, 2007, 05:59:29 PM »
Personally, I'd rather us come together on not just the issues but the prioty of said issues as well. Simply giving a laundry list makes it harder for the devs to identify critical needs or even a starting point. I suppose at least some of this has already been done in other threads though.
And while I don't necessarily subscribe to some of the suggestions you've recommended to fix our issues, they aren't anything too significant. Aside from that, I would mostly agree with your assessment of the harm monk issues.
Logged
Leishiu
Sensei
Karma: +7/-6
Posts: 318
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #3 on:
March 28, 2007, 07:12:35 PM »
Quote from: Vinjin on March 28, 2007, 05:59:29 PM
Personally, I'd rather us come together on not just the issues but the prioty of said issues as well. Simply giving a laundry list makes it harder for the devs to identify critical needs or even a starting point. I suppose at least some of this has already been done in other threads though.
Harmonious dosen't have anything critical (unlike Dragon and Drunken) to fix per se; but it's still very limited due to the large amout of abilities (I would say I don't use at least half) that of one reason or another aren't quite useable. While naturally not having same priority as the more pressing of getting other styles up-to-par, it's easy to forget that despite things are looking better for the Harmonious than for the others.
Managed to forget:
Diamond Body:
Clears disease/poison/curses every second for 2 minutes, increases AC by ~800 (possibly % based, tooltip states 0), 30 minute reuse, 6 Jin.
It's either quite powerful (the duration) for raidevents or generally just useless (30 minute cooldown, can't be used very often). A simple fix would be maintaining cost, remove the AC component, remove reuse (or reduce to a few seconds anyhow) and make it a single cleanse. Since the heavy Jin cost, it couldn't be spammed, but would still be an availible choice.
In general though, this ability should be made availible for all monks and find some suitable replacement for Harmonious.
Logged
Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
Jengfu
Desciple
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 29
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #4 on:
March 29, 2007, 08:33:05 AM »
i find that in general, monks lack in what they are suppose to be specialized in. Harmonious monks lack a bit in buffs and debuffs as for the 2 others i only speculate dragon prob. lack in DPS skills or some with to long of reuse time and drunken monks prob lack in dodging abilities and counter attacks.
Logged
Jaxinor
Master
Karma: +2/-2
Posts: 59
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #5 on:
March 29, 2007, 09:17:57 AM »
You don't like waning palm? I use that all the time. It has to be one of the most powerful targetable deagros in the game. And as long as your healer isn't running around like a chicken with its head cut off you shouldn't have any targetting problems.
Logged
*Jaxinor thinks your kung fu is weak*
Leishiu
Sensei
Karma: +7/-6
Posts: 318
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #6 on:
March 29, 2007, 09:58:00 AM »
Quote from: Jaxinor on March 29, 2007, 09:17:57 AM
You don't like waning palm? I use that all the time. It has to be one of the most powerful targetable deagros in the game. And as long as your healer isn't running around like a chicken with its head cut off you shouldn't have any targetting problems.
Well, I play with decently heavy CC, where a badly used power would simply break an already established CC - and even when CC isn't availible (raz inkur) healer agro usually occurs either directly into fight (where mobs lack debuffs so they'll simply just splat the healer up before I could get targeting going) or not at all.
Ever since disciple critrate was fixed, I've never seen a healer having agro issues; hence the use has been quite limited for me - I suppose others would have diffrent experiences.
Logged
Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
Deinnun
Recruit
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 9
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #7 on:
March 29, 2007, 10:16:54 AM »
Level 25 harmonious here.
I can't show hard numbers but I have a feeling that our specials interrupt autoattack so if you spam them there are hardly any basic damage dealt. This unlike my ranger.
Nerve strike: useless on mobs higher in level since FD often fails and that is the only way to use nerve strike for me. I'm dreaming of Storm Stride working with Nerve Strike
Either that or adjust FD so it does not fail so often on higher mobs.
About damage. I seem to be very safe in a group, I can dish out as much damage as I can and rarely steal aggro from the tank, even if I'm higher in levels and not using Goading Slap. I don't know if this is intended but it feels wrong.
I also feel the crane stance is unbalanced, too much damage penalty for very little evasion gain.
I have stopped soloing with my monk, it's just not viable.
Logged
Fenrirr
Recruit
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 7
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #8 on:
March 29, 2007, 11:40:57 AM »
Deinnun currently right now 1 dmg = 1 hate in vaguard. With poor monk itemization and every increasingly powerful other melee weapons. We tend to get out DPS'ed thus out hated. + I beleive tank abilities have additional hate but combined with the hate system = powerful taunting power. Dont get me wrong we can steal pull agro off in a instant when we burn a couple of cooldowns and get a nice crit chain.
Logged
LeadFoot
Master
Karma: +2/-5
Posts: 82
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #9 on:
March 29, 2007, 12:06:17 PM »
Great post Leishu. I am a 36 harmonious monk. I agree with much of what you have said. However, I do not agree that Tiger stance is over-powering. The 50% endurance penalty is substantial and should decrease slightly with levels. Maybe down to 40% or so at lvl50. I would like to see some added use out of harmonious stance as right now it is useful only out of battle really. I like the idea of it giving extra jin on jin based attacks, and maybe reducing jin needed for those requiring jin. That would make this stance useful. I never use crane stance. Maybe it is useful in certain situations, but even when solo I don't use it.
I do not agree on the durations of the secrets and iron hand. I do believe the duration should be increased or they should instantly re-up if the jin is available. I do not like having to push the iron hand button every 60 second. I think a 5 minute buff time would be better, or at the end of 60 second it is automatically re-applied for 2 jin if the jin exists. I think the secrets line would be too powerful if you could apply it for 30 min for 4 jin. Jin is supposed to be something where the monk gains power the more he fights. Thus being able to have iron hand and secrets up while chilling out for 20 minute does not make sense. I think 20 sec is too short. Perhaps a longer duration of maybe 2 min for maybe 8 jin would be better. Maybe they should make it scale with levels. So as you level the cost in jin increases but the duration increases as well.
OVerall I am happy with harmonious monk but wish there were not so many skills and stances that I never use. The auto-crit ability is fairly useless in my mind especially since I crit a lot in tiger stance. Perhaps if it was an auto-crit that allowed access to all finisher regardless of cooldown state it would then have a use. That would allow us to open boundless fist twice in a row every 5 min or so. Secret of Celerity is very nice, but that long a cool down makes you never want to use it when it is up. It is almost like a novelty that is cool to use once in a while. Reducing the cool down on this would make it more usable.
The debuffs are nice, but I agree the duration is too short. I never use Deadly Adder because the endurance cost is too great for the 16 sec debuff. If these increased in duration as you level it would make them much more usable. Perhaps to 32 sec around lvl35 or so, and then 48 sec around lvl 50.
Logged
Quinn the Mighty
Monk Lead
Kyoshi
Sensei
Karma: +50/-38
Posts: 443
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #10 on:
March 29, 2007, 03:03:15 PM »
/sticky for j00
~QTM
Logged
Leishiu
Sensei
Karma: +7/-6
Posts: 318
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #11 on:
March 29, 2007, 03:54:50 PM »
Quote from: LeadFoot on March 29, 2007, 12:06:17 PM
However, I do not agree that Tiger stance is over-powering. The 50% endurance penalty is substantial and should decrease slightly with levels. Maybe down to 40% or so at lvl50.
Endurance: With Aum Ti, it's at +30%. For dealing damage (it's purpose and intent) that's a very cheap price for the +30% you have at level 50; in contrary it should perhaps be 40% until level 30 and then be increased to 50%. It does feel harsh on most of our other abilties that does not deal damage though; but the power is our brothers keeper.
Potency: When we can maintain 40%+ (level 30+) critrate without much issue using two-hander - our finishers will not be evolving - if flying kick would become a 400% + X like other DPS melee - Monks would indeed feel a power increase, but Harmonious would become the #1 offensive fighter due to our ability to spam finisher after finisher. It is currently allowing us to maintain a fighting edge against other classes - but it might also be holding the our class back - a bad combination; hence the comment about it being a bit powerful.
It's a fine line to thread though.
Quote
I do not agree on the durations of the secrets and iron hand. I do believe the duration should be increased or they should instantly re-up if the jin is available. I do not like having to push the iron hand button every 60 second. I think a 5 minute buff time would be better, or at the end of 60 second it is automatically re-applied for 2 jin if the jin exists. I think the secrets line would be too powerful if you could apply it for 30 min for 4 jin.
You'll see more powerful buffs with longer 60x (or 180x for secrets) duration and no real cost (energy cost for buffs is neligible) for other classes. Holding our buffs back simply because we don't have energy is a bad way to go about it. Or simply making all our secret exotic ways to burst our DPS; it's really all fine to me.
Logged
Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
Gwaehirs Fist
Recruit
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 9
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #12 on:
March 29, 2007, 05:05:29 PM »
Quote from: Leishiu on March 28, 2007, 04:24:05 PM
Well, at least mine.
"...
Stances:
Harmonious Stances leaves no real complaints (Tiger might actually be a tad to powerful to be fair)...."
are you kidding? I cant understand why people would post that our class needs a nerf. If it's a 'tad bit' overpowered, lets leave it at that and let it be known for us monks only.
This is exactly the same thing rogues are doing now in re to their now working lint book, which gives them a 600 point heal using badages in or out of combat with no refreh timer.
Dont make the devs look at us and think we are OK, because we are not. Please dont post abut how anything a monk hasis overpowered-- this will certainly get the ONE useful ability we have subject to the raginf nerf wars that commence
every week.
Logged
Jengfu
Desciple
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 29
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #13 on:
March 29, 2007, 05:16:48 PM »
Gwaehirs Fist, is not that over powered, mostly with the end that it take off each skill and the fact that we get 0 other benifits out of it. And over that you dont real get a +20 or +25% increat in crit change, because if it were true i should be crit every 39% of the time or so (about 13% base, +1 from gear and 25 from form), witch isnt even closely happenning.
Logged
Gwaehirs Fist
Recruit
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 9
Re: Harmonious Issues.
«
Reply #14 on:
March 29, 2007, 05:24:56 PM »
Quote from: Jengfu on March 29, 2007, 05:16:48 PM
Gwaehirs Fist, is not that over powered, mostly with the end that it take off each skill and the fact that we get 0 other benifits out of it. And over that you dont real get a +20 or +25% increat in crit change, because if it were true i should be crit every 39% of the time or so (about 13% base, +1 from gear and 25 from form), witch isnt even closely happenning.
I certainly never thought our Tiger stance was overpowered at all. I was responding to Leishu's comment that he thought that "...Tiger Stance is a bit overpowered to be fair...."
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