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Topic: Dragon Issues (Read 7059 times)

Chunli

Grandmaster

Karma: +12/-4
Posts: 121

Dragon Issues

« on: March 27, 2007, 10:14:42 AM »

Think you can get Talisker to give an update about concerns/bugs anytime soon? I am pretty sure this list speaks for Dragon Style (with a couple of general Monk abilities addressed)

Reference threads:

-Stances: will test them when I have time. Storm still does not proc on multiple targets if using an AE and it procs. Stone icons do not match. Dragon icon does not go away when you change out of the stance.

-Iron Hands still has stacking issues. Sometimes it adds damage, sometimes it subtracts damage.

-Divine Tsunami (melee damage + 515) barely does any more damage than Divine Typhoon (melee damage + 492) and does less damage than Divine Avalanche (melee damage +516) all are on a 2 min refresh as well. Leet damage for the follow-up of an advanced finisher. Actually on this subject, lets discuss our supposed AE prowess that was touted when choosing Dragon style:

Here is a list of our AE attacks:

Divine finisher chain

(1) Divine Typhoon 4 = melee damage + 492 (10 END, 2 min refresh)
(2) Divine Avalanche 3 = melee damage + 516 (10 END, 2 min refresh)
(3) Divine Tsunami 1 = melee damage + 515 (10 END, 2 min refresh)

END using AEs

Whirling Storm 5 = melee + 143 (34 END)
Dragon Rakes Its Claw 3 = melee + 136, frontal only (34 END)

Jin using AE

Dragon Breath 1 = 357 - 389 dmg, frontal only (8 Jin, 10 min refresh)

Abilities in italics are unique to Dragon AFAIK

SO we have a 3 part AE chain, a normal AE, and 2 frontal AE attacks. Refresh times severely restrict our supposed AE kingship. Low damage hurts this even more. Then the steep costs (for such little damage) sticks the knife in the chest. Change the "Divine xx" chain to use 400% weapon damage + xxx damage, drop the reuse to 1 minute like everyone else, and we should be talking business for that finisher chain.

-Dragon Rakes Its Claw (frontal cone attack) costs the same END, but does less dmg than the full AE all monks get.

-Dragon Breath is a pretty subpar attack. 10 minute refresh/8 Jin cost. Frontal cone attack that does 400-424 damage. Wow talk about an overpowered attack. /sarcasm

-Dragon's Rage does pitiful damage for a 5 minute refresh/4 Jin cost. (366-390 damage, always crits) and does not always crit. Reduce the refresh greatly and it could be worth using.

-Cloud Dragon's Ruse is a subpar attack as a 5 minute refresh/6 Jin attack. (melee + 350, makes target not attack for 1 second {worthless}, and always opens a finisher). Reduce the refresh greatly and it could be worth using.

-Three Finger Strike and Hammer Fist both do a paltry 75 damage on average, sometimes less, rarely more. Palm Explodes the Heart does subpar damage at 1234. So for an attack chain I get at 50, I can look foreward to (75) + (75) + (1234) = 1384 unbuffed damage from a 3 part attack chain...wow. The significant increase to damage was rather measly. The first 2 attacks should do alot more damage than what they do, 250 weapon % + some damage, and Palm Explodes the Heart should be close to, if not more than, Thousand Fists. Then slap on a 1 minute refresh on the attacks in the chain if the damage is greatly improves.

-Lets have Thousand Fists chain have a chance of hitting 3 times, ala Windsong. Make it use weapon % mod rather than melee dmg + . Would also be nice to have a 3rd chain in this series.

-Gouging/Sundering Dragon Claw - Make them use weapon % mod, not melee damage + .

-Secret of Celerity...30 minute refresh is WAY too much. Lets shoot for 10/15 minutes, ok? Also, remove the global cooldown it incurs on us. Waste of an already precious 2 seconds.

-All Secrets - Lets see how much damage they are supposed to do, and have the time they last added to the description. They do not proc on AE attacks, other than on the mob you have targetted.

-Aum Liat should have the negative effect of having all attacks cost 25% more END removed, then it would be worth using.

-Aum Ti should have the dodge component put back into it, but at the moment it is the Aum that Monks use once they have it.

-Aum Kor needs to have more than 10% melee haste. Actually melee haste is basically useless wiith fists IMO. The ones you get at higher levels are all less than 2 delay. So anything that gives you haste is useless since using a skill resets your autoattack timer. And with less than a 2 delay, you will always get a swing in before your global cooldown is up. Would be nice to see specials NOT reset your autoattack swings, therefore making haste beneficial to all classes, not just the ones that use a 2 hander, or really slow 1 hander.

-Idea for Aums/Secrets - lets have each style of Monk have a Secret/Aum unique to them. Also, you could probably make it so that Aums affect the group.

-Jin Surge should not be consumed on a miss, on a buff, or on an autoattack. The buff should only be consumed on the next special attack. Jin surge should also not cancel out your finisher chain when you use it. Or better yet make it for the next 10 seconds type of buff.

-Iron Skin - Can we get the reuse reduced on this? 10 minutes is a bit extreme for how short the buff is (10 seconds I believe).

-Aspect of the Spirit Dragon ... really confused on this one. WTF do we even have it? It was cool for about a day. I do not even have it on my hotbar now. Give us something useful. Preferably something that makes stuff die faster please.

-Ignore Pain should be a % of total HP heal, especially if it is on a 5 minute timer. On my tooltip it reads 827 heal, but really does 777 because my Vitality is not spectacular. Our heal should not be based on Vitality either, remnants of an outdated system when we actually had energy.

-FD is still buggy as hell. I can succeed 10 times in a row on a group of mobs that are aggroed to me, yet they will not leave my body and they keep me in combat. Not good when said mobs hit for 1.5k and can stun.

-Storm Stride still does not always teleport you to the target. Mainly seems bugged if you are moving.

-For being the supposed masters of opening up weaknesses...I feel like a grasshopper.

I open up:
Enraged
Shaken (x2)
Vulnerable

I exploit:
Enraged
Dazed
Staggered
Soul Wracked

Maybe add in some vulnerability add/exploits to some more of our attacks, even if it means our finisher chain attacks, to really make us the masters of opening vulnerabilities. Don't need to exploit more of our own, just add in more options since that was one of the things we were told we could do well.

-=Off Topic=-
-WTB class specific armor at higher levels. Rahz Inkur looks like a pretty good spot to do this in. Could even have some of the stuff come from Nusibe. Make it start in Afrit, and gather armor drops from Rahz/Nusibe, as well as catalysts for the armor. Lets even toss in a new quest line that maybe takes us through all of the 45+ areas for another series of weapons. Graystone is nice and all, but lets see new stuff that will keep people playing and occupied when they hit 50.

-Animations. Our animations are terrible to say the least. I do not feel like a well honed warrior trained in the ways of the Monks. Our two hand weapon animations are even worse than our unarmed/fist weapon animations. Play some fighting games, watch some anime, watch some martial arts movies. There are some kick ass moves that can be used. Lets see something that makes you feel like you are playing a Monk as opposed to playing some side scrolling game from the 80s with all of 5 different looking, bland attacks.

Any comments by him would be appreciated as these issues have been jacked up since, well, forever. It is my understanding, well maybe interpretation, that by picking Dragon Style we give up group utility and evasion in favor of damage. Should we not stand head and shoulders above the other monks in damage? Also we should be pretty damn close to Rogues that are sneaking/behind/etc. (they have great utility in their darts/flechettes now, whereas before they had none to speakof). Rangers can have their edge in longer fights as they study the target or whatever. Groups should have a tough time deciding which melee DPS they want. A Monk should be one of those choices.


« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 06:27:21 AM by Chunli »	Logged

Chunli (RETIRED)
50 Kojani Dragon Monk
Tharridon server

Quote

And Monks are BAD A$$
__________________
Darrin Mcpherson
Senior Game Designer
Sigil Online Games
-------------------------

Dragon Monk Bugs

Kagekiri

Desciple

Karma: +3/-0
Posts: 27

Re: Quinn

« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 10:32:17 AM »

I'm KageKiri - Dragon Monk and I approve this message!

Nice writeup Chunli, you have my vote for Dragon Monk lead.

But you forgot one thing from the list - Stance animations.

Storm Dragon - We are encircled by swirling electrical charges like that bad guy demon in the movie - Big Trouble in Little China.

Dragon Stance - We have the DragonBall Z power up aura - nothing obnoxious but noticable.

Stone Dragon - We take on the hue of Stone.

If we get these additions - then we will be on the right path to Brad's original statement about us!


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Stone Dragon stance the blue pill alternative!

Slayed

Desciple

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 33

Re: Quinn

« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 10:49:01 AM »

I agree, nice writeup on how out of wack we are. The one whole stance not working AT ALL really really annoys me.
Id love to be regening while running around after a fight. Well if it can be noticed...


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Morrigan

Recruit

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 1

Re: Quinn

« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2007, 11:38:11 AM »

this topic finally got me to register for the forums.

i whole heartadly agree with all points

lvl 44 dragon monk


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Ryoku

Grandmaster

Karma: +5/-1
Posts: 110

Re: Quinn

« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2007, 12:09:27 PM »

Quote from: Kagekiri on March 27, 2007, 10:32:17 AM

Absolutely agree with this.

Obviously I also agree with the original post but that goes without saying.


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Monk rights activist.

Shengyi Tsung

Grandmaster

Karma: +5/-8
Posts: 197

Re: Quinn

« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 12:33:34 PM »

You get a bow from me Chunli! Awesome thread.

The only sad part i see is that im sure Quinn has reported many of these bugs and we still haven't had a major monk overhaul patch Sad

not sure what else we can really do if they are too busy to help us.


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sarmone

Desciple

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 32

Re: Quinn

« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 12:44:31 PM »

- exploiting boundless fists does more dmg than explointing six dragon strike
- i dont see the point geting invs at lvl 46 should be somthing like lvl 30 atleast
- lvl 50 chains should do 2k+dmg since a DK gets a 3k+dmg HT at lvl 46 then gets a 2K dmg DoT at 50 and another 3k+ nuke that costs them all their dreadfull contenance, they are tanks lol ( never seen what other classes get at 50 except DK)
- cloud dragon ruse is useless cause we dont need a 30% crits chance for an Adv finisher
- our ds buff for 20 sec should change to a 20+ dmg for an hour, never used it costs jin and even if it gets fixed still a useless ability
- fd should be skill based and upgrades for refresh timer
- thousand fiists/thundering fists changed to a multi-hit chain similar to a ranger's windsong


« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 12:57:30 PM by sarmone »	Logged

planck

Recruit

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 6

Re: Quinn

« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2007, 10:52:34 AM »

A excellent post. A great wrap up of DM isssues.

Planck
Halcyon Affinity
50 Dragon Monk


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Slayed

Desciple

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 33

Re: Quinn, Dragon Monk bugs

« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2007, 11:32:09 AM »

Stone Dragon, does anyone really use it? If your 20% slower and without the lightning damage from our main stance maybe let us hit 20% harder in stone dragon? Just an idea. Become slow hard hitter and able to take a bit more damage since our evasion blows. Possibly make the AC bonus scaleable somehow rather then a hard number.

Dragon Stance, food level of regen out of combat really that hard to fix? Feigned and regening like we were eating would make that stance worthwhile.

Ok, not dragon fully but I pull with shurikens obviously with lightning damage its decent, but fix shuriken damage so its not all equal to the junk ones.

Monks need a full pass, fix the classes before AAs and other class "tweaks".


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Fenrirr

Recruit

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 7

Re: Quinn, Dragon Monk bugs

« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2007, 12:02:09 PM »

Right now with itemization Dragon style monks are not the highest dps monk. Harmonious monks are no doubt. harmonious monk with greystone martial staff with tiger stance = MAJOR MAJOR DPS. Itemization really hurt monks right now. Its sad to see that every quest reward for monks are 2handers except for maybe 1-2 fist weapon rewards. To tell the truth I do not understand why harmonious monks got crit increase and not dragon sytle. With the new changes 25% endurance isnt to much of a increase and not sure but I think AUM's lower this debuff.

Dont forget some of the abilities you stated are not just dragon sytle but monk in general abilities. Buffing those would not just boost dragon sytle monks but other monks. Stances do need to be reworked because as of now dragon style monks are not the top DPS of monks.

I agree with you on most but the abilities to open finishers arnt in themselves to be Superioir dmg but time abilities to open up chains at will to dish it out. Their main use comes in your timing skills and watching what your ally's are placing on the enemy and exploiting their debuffs asap. A added note Cloud Dragon's Ruse currently does not stun the NPC.

The FD bug will almost ALWAYS happen if you get 4 or more NPC's on you. Rare chance that 4 or more npc FD's will FD them all off. Did you know that a necro can FD while FD, which allows him to escape this FD bug (technically right now Necromancers FD is a bigger advantage then Monk FD).


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Quinn the Mighty

Monk Lead
Kyoshi
Sensei

Karma: +50/-38
Posts: 443

Re: Quinn, Dragon Monk bugs

« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2007, 03:01:50 PM »

/sticky so I don't lose this info

~QTM


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bosui

Recruit

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 3

Re: Quinn, Dragon Monk bugs

« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2007, 03:40:15 PM »

something i noticed about storm dragon stance just recently, when using iron hand. while it does increase your melee damage, it LOWERS the proc damage from storm dragon stance by an equal amount. I would appreciate if anyone else could confirm this, and add it to the list of problems with dragon style


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Leishiu

Sensei

Karma: +7/-6
Posts: 318

Re: Quinn, Dragon Monk bugs

« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2007, 03:42:23 PM »

Quote from: Fenrirr on March 29, 2007, 12:02:09 PM

With the new changes 25% endurance isnt to much of a increase and not sure but I think AUM's lower this debuff.

It's 50%, 30% with our only really useful Aum though. But yes, it's not that big of a disadvantage for the crit chance - it's still rather heavy of a disadvantage if you plan on doing something else than damage.

Quote

Did you know that a necro can FD while FD, which allows him to escape this FD bug (technically right now Necromancers FD is a bigger advantage then Monk FD).

Double tap FD. It's not really hard.


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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)

Fenrirr

Recruit

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 7

Re: Quinn, Dragon Monk bugs

« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007, 03:47:58 PM »

With the recent changes I find myself not using storm dragon but just fire and ice because its the same damage but the additional stats make them worth using. Right now storm dragon is just a joke my average is about 180dmg with it at lvl 40 and fire and ice do about the same damage -+ 10 dmg. One secret I dont understand is trans it doesnt seem to increase dmg enough and the proc isnt to far from the others to really so its almost inefficent to cast for the cost of 12 jin and a 10min recast.


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Chunli

Grandmaster

Karma: +12/-4
Posts: 121

Re: Quinn, Dragon Monk bugs

« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2007, 04:38:26 PM »

Tested the Iron Hand thing for an hour today, and yes the damage proc does go down by the same amount Iron Hand adds. Maybe our AA will make up for our bugs.


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Chunli (RETIRED)
50 Kojani Dragon Monk
Tharridon server

Quote

And Monks are BAD A$$
__________________
Darrin Mcpherson
Senior Game Designer
Sigil Online Games
-------------------------

Dragon Monk Bugs

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