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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Tiger Stance + 2H for the win? « previous next »
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Author Topic: Tiger Stance + 2H for the win?  (Read 1229 times)
Varu
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« on: March 26, 2007, 10:12:24 AM »

I'm dragon style right now and was thinking of switching to harmonius after hearing many praises of it. Only thing that really keeps my hold on dragon is the ability to open and close weakness with boundless fist and six dragon strike but that only adds about 100 damage and there is also the lightining proc on my shrukiens in pvp.

Do you guys suggest I make the switch? Is Tiger Stance really that bad ass?
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Varu, 50 Harmonious Monk of Bladesworn -Sartok
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2007, 10:53:29 AM »

I went dragon understanding that the dps may not be as good as harmonious (based purely on what people have said on this forum - no independent testing).  My thought process was, dragon is intended to be THE dps style for monks, so even if it isn't pumping out as much dps as originally intended, it will get fixed at some point (*taps fingers on table*) and will be ranked higher than harmonious in that regard.  If you don't mind switching to test it out, then switching back when Dragon gets fixed, then go for it.  Worst thing that can happen is that you get to play with a new style for a bit - that you may even come to enjoy more.

To be honest though, when grouped so far in Dragon stance, I can purposefully trade aggro with the tank without having to go full throttle on the dps (and my gear is unremarkable), so even if there is a dps boost, it may only be more useful for me in soloing or burning down a mob that is close to death.
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Varu
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2007, 10:57:11 AM »

oh yea, only thing stopping me right now is the long walk back to kojan Smiley

I think once I get soaring leap I may go switch but if it really makes a difference i'll go do it now.
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Varu, 50 Harmonious Monk of Bladesworn -Sartok
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2007, 11:50:23 AM »

Ok i played dragon stance from lvl 15-29 and harm from 30-38.

Info you need to know:
HARMONIOUS QUEST SUCKS MONKEY TURRRRRDS!   you have to jump off jalen's crossing into the water to get some udnerwater lilly and spend 15-20 minutes alone swimming back around to land.  Get a boat and you'll be fine.

There are a few reasons why Harm MAY out DPS dragon.  We can debuff armor by 15% so everyone can do more damage in that reguard against the mob.  Dragon offensive stance sucks and needs to be fixed/changed.  That lightning crap is stupid, they just need to give you guys a +20% damage stance night that lightning BS.

I think tiger stance is MERELY ok.  People are trying to do rogue like spikey damage by hitting really hard every once in awhile.  IMO as a 38 harm monk, h2h is much better DPS and i'm waiting for others opinions in some other threads on this.  I have had much higher crits using h2h than 2handing.  Plus i attack faster so i can get in a few auto attacks in while spamming specials.  You can't spam specials in tiger stance and you can't get in auto attacks if you do spam specials in another stance. 

I can spam specials in harm style because of jin stance.  It seems to recover jin fairly quickly, so i debuff armor, then debuff strength, then crescent kick then ashen hand, and i can do it over and over.  The crits give one jin back each so that helps keep jin up, plus once the debuffs are in you don't need to spend the end attacking with those attacks so you are regening end (or using very minor amounts) so i can easily balance the 2 to consistently deal damage.  This seems to work best with h2h.  That could be because my h2h weapon 40DPS is so close to my 41DPS 2hander and thats why my H2H does more.  If i get a better 2hander then i can compare because in general 2handers will have higher damage so that could be my problem.  A more realistic comparison i imagine would be a 40DPS h2h and a 60 DPS 2hander or somethign like that.  The availibity of the weapons is very restrcited though, very tough quests etc so that poses a problem also.  Well off to class with me, hope this helps.
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Leishiu
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2007, 01:25:47 PM »

I can spam specials in harm style because of jin stance.  It seems to recover jin fairly quickly, so i debuff armor, then debuff strength, then crescent kick then ashen hand, and i can do it over and over.  The crits give one jin back each so that helps keep jin up, plus once the debuffs are in you don't need to spend the end attacking with those attacks so you are regening end (or using very minor amounts) so i can easily balance the 2 to consistently deal damage.  This seems to work best with h2h.  That could be because my h2h weapon 40DPS is so close to my 41DPS 2hander and thats why my H2H does more.  If i get a better 2hander then i can compare because in general 2handers will have higher damage so that could be my problem.  A more realistic comparison i imagine would be a 40DPS h2h and a 60 DPS 2hander or somethign like that.  The availibity of the weapons is very restrcited though, very tough quests etc so that poses a problem also.  Well off to class with me, hope this helps.

In general, two-handers appears to have roughly 25-30% more dps than one hander when considered "equal" (ie as choice from a quest reward). There's two capital diffrences - a two-handed weapon is a weapon by itself, fist weapons are not - you need two of them (while you wont get that much of diminished returns on the offhander being weaker, it's still there; and secondly like you mention you'll have a larger chance getting off some normal strikes (however, there is a slow with using specials, meaning that to fast of a weapon is wasting swings as it will not be able to swing as it should due to the artifical delay). However, even with my 3.25 delay staff does swing a surpring amout of times.
40/32 combo would outdo Zank (45), so that it outdoes a 41 two-hander isn't really unexpected.
There's (faik) also a vast jump for useful fists - two-handed weapons get DT (65 DPS) and Greystone (71 DPS) while there's a complete void for fistwraps that's capable of even competing until 50 (?).
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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2007, 03:02:46 PM »

Thanks for some clarification Leishu =D

I still don't understand the "wasted swings" thing though.  If i hit too fast i dont hit?  If it does damage when it hits is it wasted?  I understand the autoattack resets when you use an ability but during global refresh my weapons fast enough to get a hit in till next special.  The the 2hander (mine at least) is often too slow to get in an attack before the refresh is over and i hit next special. 

Could you clarify and or explain the "wasted swing" for me?  Anyone?  much appreciated!
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Leishiu
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2007, 03:13:07 PM »

When you push special you get an artifical delay. If your weapon speed < artifical delay you will have swings that should go off that dosen't.
Ie, if the artifical delay is two seconds, your delay is 1.85, you'll miss out .15 delay each time you use an ability; it wont fill any use more than decresing the actual damage output of your weapon - unless you're afk and autoattacking, where it works fine.
Now, I'm not exactly 100% how this works, so it might be that there's nothing such as wasted; but I really never swing until global cooldown is refreshed (even with natural fists).
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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2007, 07:07:50 PM »

Here's the concept behind faster weapons wasting damage when WeaponDelay < GlobalCooldown

For a weapon where WeaponDelay is at least the GlobalCooldown, you autoattack at the same rate as you would when you can do specials, so there is never a different delay that you are concerned with.

For a weapon with a WeaponDelay faster than GlobalCooldown, you have no delay autoattacking, or if you constantly spam special attacks, but if you mix autoattacks and specialattacks, then you are slowing your autoattacks by the amount that they had been recharged when you hit the specialattack.  This doesn't really introduce a damage penalty on its own, because your attacks are still going off as quickly as they can as you use your higher damage specials.

However, faster weapons do less damage than slower weapons of the same level.  Which means that you are taking a faster weapon with a short delay and increasing the delay without getting the corresponding increase in damage that the slightly longer delay would warrant were the item set to that increased delay in the first place.

I hope that made sense.
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Meiyen, Kojani Dragon Monk, Lao'Jin Knight, Juritor of Silk Wisdom
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 01:49:35 AM »

Lol, wow you guys are really serious about this crap. 

I understand the difference in damage between fast and slow weapons
I understand how i get off an attack during global refresh with auto attack
still not sure how im losing damage, i'll think about it some, thanks for trying to help me though =D
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Jaxinor
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 02:08:19 AM »

I have a 41.5/40 pair of handwraps, and the 71 dps martial staff from greystone.  I'm dragon atm, and as much as I hate to do it, I'm probably going to switch to harmonious tomorrow, at least temporarily.  I'm really curious to see what my damage output will be, so I'll let you all in on my findings.
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Leishiu
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 05:01:18 AM »

I'm probably going to switch to harmonious tomorrow, at least temporarily.

Be sure to have recall up for doing the harmonious quests. :/
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Leishiu ~ Halgar (or sommert)
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