The secrets line should be converted into a self buff that lasts an hour and have only one active at a time. Currently I still do not find the urge to use the Secrets line in its current form even after the changes. What real incentive is there for me to waste 2-4 Jin on a Secret when I can do good instant damage from Ashen Hand AND have another chance to crit which we all know Monks rely on to increase their DPS.

If the Secrets line as well as Iron Hand is moved into a self buff on an hour timer, it'll increase our versatility and add a sizable chunk to our DPS without having to tweak with numbers too much.

Does anyone agree with this?

I suppose the argument could be made that abilities such as these are just "icing on the cake", but I do agree with your general premise, Ryoku.

If anything what you propose underscores the need to address the playability and usefullness of abilities as a whole instead of individually.  Many people seem to find abilities such as Iron Hand tedious in their constant re-application, myself included.  In the case of Secrets you make an equally valid point.

I've never been a proponent of short-lived affects, especially when they can be equalled or exceeded by other abilities with less effort and/or cost.  Moreover, I'd rather see combat move towards less frantic button pushing in order to maximize damage each short battle, to a more strategic use of longer lived skills.

Personally I think their combat system is unnecessarilly complex.  I'd like to see more emphasis placed on auto attack, especially considering how item-centric the game is.  This would make the strategic use of longer lived abilities more viable and easier to tune across the board.  As you rightfully point out though, Ogan, the system is what it is.

Do we? We've been shown very little improvement while other classes get huge gains. They claim they want to fix us... just as the Devs claimed this in EQ1. But it never went anywhere... other than giving us one of the biggest nerfs in EQ history.

If they can make such big adjustments to other classes, they sure as hell can make the same adjustment to us. There really is no excuse.

I think the incentive is because the fight isnt instant.  If fights only lasted 20 seconds then yes there would be no purpose for them.  I cant see how people dont find secret and iron hand useful.  I cast them right before a fight and my DPS sky rockets compared to without it.  Jin isnt hard to build up in battle especially with no cool down from crescent kick, so right there you can build up at least 3 Jin in an instant not to mention one of them will probably open up a chain.

I'm not saying that changing them to hour long buffs would be worse or better, but they are still useful the way they are.  All that "instant" dmg you were going to do anyways has just become larger if you use secrets and iron hand.

You all make valid points, mine however, was to increase the versatility of our class without resorting to the clickfest the Secrets/Iron Hand self buffs currently are.

Yes, it is incredibly easy to build Jin and almost just as easy to maintain the secrets/Iron hand buffs during a long fight. It is however, extremely tedious to me at least and I find myself much more inclined to just do two quick Ashen Hands with my 8   Jin and hope for a crit.

If these buffs became what buffs are to other classes as I stated, the strategic implecations of them would be amplified and I'd be much happier to keep one on at all times. In cases like Secret of Celerity perhaps its affect could be tweaked to match the long duration.

And the other big part of my idea is buffing our DPS without having to change the system. We all know that tweaking the way our damage is done is extremely complex and must have many things considered or the entire system can be thrown out of whack with just one change. (Think of the patch that "fixed" melee several weeks ago). To say that this would overpower us in any way, to me at least, is rubbish considering the position we're currently in.

It's simply an alternative "quick fix" if you will that certainly wouldn't require massive overhauls to see results.

My opinion, at least.

I like your enthusiasm but i think you have the whole iron hand think a bit mixed up.

My iron hand is on for every battle i participate in (so basically its on for 2 hours straight) .   With the exception of downtime when we aren't fighting, iron hand is ALWAYS up like its a real buff.  Therefore making it last 60 minutes instead of 60 seconds changes absolutely NOTHING lol.  How do i get more damage from keeping a buff consistently up when i already have it consistently up???  So i am for the 60 minute duration on Iron Hand.

Now for the secrets i can see what you're saying, esepcially secret of celerity.  When i turn on celerity i understand what its like to be a ranger or a rogue for 20 seconds and damn it feels good, lol.   I still say celerity should have a timer reduced to 5 minutes (ok ok maybe 10).  The secret of celerity can not be put on a 60 minute duration, its far too powerful.  However i could see the fire and ice ones kind of as interchangeable stance type deals.  you can have only one up at a time but it stays on.  We still wouldn't out DPS a ranger or rogue with this, but it woudl give us a fair DPS boost.  I can see this is a plausible solution to our DPS problem and i for one would be happy if this is how they solved it.

Now that's a great idea.  To me that is the ultimate compromise.  Toggle it on when you want it (and suffer an automatic Jin usage) then turn it off when you're done.

Similar to how Storm Dragon Stance works now.

My thinking is this.. they screwed up by thinking jin would = energy.  They screwed up by making very short temp buffs based off jin would = hour long buffs other classes get.  While the idea was a really good one it didnt pan out to equal the effectiveness of other classes.  We are the only class without energy yet we are the only class that uses jin. We are not the only class that uses jin like things, they just call it something else.

I think that they need to rethink some things.  Iron hand I think should go on an hour long buff... yes you can keep it up forever if you want as long as you have jin... but really why have to micro manage every 60 seconds when other classes dont have to.  Iron hand is not that overpowering and is intended to stay up or they wouldn't allow it to be refreshed by the time it ran out.  Simple fix move it to an hour long buff.  Secret of ice and fire should be moved to a toggle buff that you can have 1 up or the other but not both... rangers get buffs like that, that are equal in power of ice and fire.. so why do we have to micro manage and they dont.. simple fix move it to the toggle buff style just like the rangers.. Secret of celerity... would be too powerful to do this so should remain just like it currently is ... maby decrease the refresh timer to 5 or 10 minutes like was stated.

Doing this would be close to fixing our utility IMO.  If anything else it would alleviate at least some of the micro manage crap that other classes dont have to deal with.