I do not know if I am the only Drunken Monk Lv30+ or not, I know I am the only one on my server, but anyways.  QTM Could you please have them take a look at all of the Drunken "Aum-Learned" Abilities?  Currently, all of the different ranks, have the same tooltips, and do the exact same thing.  ie:  Rank 1 Staggering Punch does the exact same dmg as Rank 5.   Jeering Kick rank 1 does the same as rank 4.   um...at level 40, we got an abilitiy (currently forget its name) that has an 1hour cooldown, and allows us to attack our defensive-target's target.  Now please explain to me why this is even an ability?  Further more, why it is on an 1hour cooldown?  Does hitting "/assist" not work well enough or what?  I am just completely and utterly dumbfounded about this class high level at the time.  As always, I greatly appreciate your assistance in helping myself, and our class.  Thanks!

-- Poco
Lv41 MNK Valefor err Florendyl(if its up, yesterday downtime, 8+ hours)

Sounds like a lot of abilities were cut and pasted down to the tool tip. If you could detail them in the monk issue thread I can add it to the master list that sigil has. As far as the 1 hr /assist abilitty goes ... I am not sure I know what you are talking about. If you provide me with the tooltip info I can look into it.

I have only seen a couple of posts regarding drunken monks since most changed to the other styles after the evasion changes. I would appreciate any additional info you can give.

~QTM

Errant Strikes:
6 Jin
Drunken Mastery
Refresh: 1:00:00
Allows each of your attacks to strike an opponent that is attacking your defensive target for 1min.

Problem is:
a: we already have ae's that do more dmg typically than our other abilities.
b: it doesnt work ae, it just attacks their target

and like I said, that doesnt surprise me, as I am probably the highest drunken ingame atm.  But I like the utility of the rescues. 

I think that's a contradiction. How can they be underpowered being subpar at one task, but then be overpowered by being subpar at three tasks?
The monk forms as they stand would not be overpowered when combined because they aren't that much different from each other,  and by themselves neither trumps more specialized classes. That is the essence of a hybrid class, who draws their strength not from specializing in one area but in being able to do many things well.


You just got done saying that we'd be overpowered with all three forms combined, yet now you're saying we'd be a worthless hybrid.
Which is it?

Hybrididization can work - Look at the Shaman. He can do a bit of everything, is the master of none, yet he's one of the most powerful classes in the game.
Being a hybrid and flexible doesn't have to be a handicap, it can be a powerful strength.


There's a problem with this specialized monk system.
How can one justify specializing in only damage as a Dragon monk if they aren't going to be better than Rangers and Rogues?
A Drunken monk specialization holds promise because they could do more damage than a warrior but tank better than any offensive fighter, but it seems like a very limiting role for a monk.
A harmonious monk would be good because you'vegot  DPS, survivability, and utility - It's a goodl combination and proves that hybridization is not a weakness but a strength.



We'd be totally different as I imagine it.
Imagine if the forms were kept the same, but you could switch between them on a timed interval. You'd have a level of specialization in three areas that surpasses any other class's stance system. This would offset the fact that none of your forms are the best at anything, allowing you to be pretty good at everything.

I've never percieved the monk as being a hybrid class or a utility class.  Though we have limited personal utiltity, i wasn't aware that we could share any of the few things that we can do.  (except maybe the dragon monk invis later on perhaps?)

My point being we CANT snare, root, charm, heal, rez, levitate, boost (others) run speed, invis (unless dragon)  nor can we buff up our stats (at least not that i know of) and we have limited ranged attack ability and our mez is the the weakest version in the game and is only more useful than the rogue version because we can FD.  Only dragon monks get a Stun, and i hear its a good AE one and they later get a counterattack one but other than that........

I hope this is evidence enough to convince everyone that we are not a utility class.

That being said, we are a hardcore DPS class.  We should be out parsing everyone except maybe rogues and a sorceror. This is the only balance that i can see for our class. 

The whole point of my argument is that i don't want there to be any confusion on where we SHOULD stand as a class.  We need no utility or cheap tricks to fight monsters.  If you want to dance around and shy away from the creatures you face, then play a pansy trickster bard, or a sneaky backstabbing rogue, or a "don't get my hands dirty" arrow shoveler.

We are meant to get up close and personal, and overwhelm any obstacle with blinding fury and unstoppable melee prowess.  If we all have the same perception on what our class should be, then that is what our class will become.  It's important that we are all in agreement about what should happen with the future of this class.  I don't want to come back to this forum a month from now wondering why we are still not the DPS we should be.

Now of course a drunken monk should be a little less DPS given that he has more tanking potential, and perhaps a harmonious monk should have a little less tankign and DPS potential given that he can debuff (which just leads to more DPS  ) and the dragon should be boosted a bit DPS potential, but overrall the monk class should still be a powerhouse no matter what style she/he prefers.

Stances:
I don't understand why we are constantly asked to sacrifice something in order to boost something else.  I think they should be reworked a bit, i mean a paladin offensive stance has 10% group damage boost and 5% accuracy boost FOR THE WHOLE GROUP.  Granted their damage should still not compare, but i would much rather see something like this (except not for the group).  It just seems silly to increase crits and increase costs because won't it eventually even out to normal amount of crits without costs?  In other words, useless?  Now sacrifice defense for more offense makes sense, but it doens't make since to sacrifice offense for offense.   The defensive stances make since however.  Boosted melee evasion at a damage penalty DOES make sense, and i'd leave that.  i feel the dragon and harmonious offensive stances need to be re-evaluated.

Sigil has said the intended the monk to be third on the DPS chain, if a Rogue is fighting from stealth/behind and a Ranger has time to learn his target.
The monk is only suppose to be better than the Ranger for short fights, or better than a Rogue who is fighting from the front and unstealthed.

So then, where does that leave the Monk?
Is he high DPS? Yes. Is he ever going to be the top of the DPS laddder? No, nor was he ever intended to by Sigil's admission.

Well, he's got his three forms - One could make him a better offtanker, the best of the light fighters. The other gives him more team utility, and the other gives him a minor boost to damage when the other forms aren't needed.
None of which make the monk real worthwhile by themselves, but combined could give the monk the flexibility to take on a variety of tasks that the Rogue/Ranger/Bard couldn't.
Namely: Able to have more utility than a Rogue in Harmonious, and different kinds of utility than a Ranger.
Able to come closer to the Ranger's damage with Dragon form.
Able to off tank better than a Ranger, the best of any light fighter.

I don't much see the point to picking just one path when as you already pointed out the Monk really has nothing but damage, evasion, and minor utility.
Dragon form? By itself you're still not going to out DPS the Ranger or Rogue, so why suffer permanently limitingtility and evasion potential?
Harmonious? More utility, but still not enough to offset the monk's DPS rank and lackluster evasion.
Drunken? Do you really want to limit yourself to being a dedicated off tanker and litlte more?


The Monk can be a hardcore DPS class and still have the flexibility to off tank and have team utility.
In fact, the flexibility to switch between the forms is the only thing I see that could really balance out the fact that the Monk will never be the king of melee DPS.


How is there any confusion about where the monk stands? He's DPS first and foremost, but not among the two two melee DPSers, and he wasn't intended to be. He makes up for this by augmenting himself with either better off tanking ability, better team utility, or more DPS.

The issue here is that by themselves each form doesn't really do the Monk justice. Dragon has no purpose, Drunken is broken, and Harmonious is the best right now because it gives the monk what he needs: Flexibility to go along with his DPS.

Nothing about the Monk would be lost if all three forms were opened up at once and could be switched between.

If your only reason against the merging of three forms is that you're holding out for them to make monk's a pure DPS class that tops the damage charts, well, sadly that's not going to happen because that is not Sigil's vision of the Monk.
Nor is it my vision of the monk to be a pure damage machine. Monks are more versatile than that, highly evasive, and capable of tapping into supernatural forces to give them or their teammates and edge over the opposition.


Technically that's the Dragon monk. The Harmonious or Drunken monk do not conceptually operate under that principle.

The monk means different things to different people, which is why I think it was a good idea they have three forms for different types of monks.
And on that basis it would be good if they are kept separate.
Personally I view the monk more as a harmonious being who is flexible enough to respond to a variety of tactical situations and to meet the needs of said situation.

But if the forms are to remain separate then they must be overhauled so that each one can stand on it's own.
Currently the way the forms work they would only be useful if you merged them together, because each one by itself right now is weak and only limits the monk's potential instead of bringing out the potential of certain monkly aspects.


If the forms aren't merged, then this is what has to happen:

Dragon monk: In exchange for no additional team utility or defense, you do damage capable of meeting or exceeding a Ranger who has studied his target for a while - Anything less kind of makes Dragon pointless by itself because you've got nothing else going for you, whereas the Ranger has more going for him stock. This is balanced by the fact that the Ranger still has all his utility, buffs, and ranged abilities. You won't do more damage than a Rogue who is taking advantage of everything he's got (stealth, behind, poisons, etc).
One niche the Dragon monk could potentially fill is that of being the best melee AoEer in the game.

Drunken Monk: In exchange for no additional damage, and the addition of utility that only relates to off tanking, you should be the supreme off tanker of the flight fighters. You should far surpass the capabilities or a Ranger who is in evasive mode with parry daggers. You represent the melding of warrior with offensive fighter, having much more damage than any tanker but having much less reliable defense (low mitigation and all evasion based). You retain your position as third in optimal DPS among offensive fighters, but you trade off by being about to survive longer than any of them.
 
Harmonious Monk: You have the capability to do somewhat more damage than the Drunken Monk. You have the capability to offtank somewhat better than the Dragon Monk. You have forms to meet a variety of situations, either offense or defense. Your main advantage over the other two forms is that you've got more team utility.

Not a bad trade off, but personally I find endurance so precious during prolonged battles that I will probably decide that 10 endurance could be better put towards another boundless fist or something else, considering the poor damage on Crescent Kick.
All I use CK for right now is building jin, because it's basically cost free, but that's balanced out by it's long recharge IMO.

I wouldn't mind CK getting upped to 5 end, but 10 might be a bit too much.