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December 02, 2008, 11:16:34 PM

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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Bye! « previous next »
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Soluss
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2007, 10:08:06 AM »

With regards to grouping, I have never encountered a problem in finding a group because I am a monk.  In fact, I usually encounter the exact opposite.  Groups love us because of FD.  Does it work every single time?  No, it does not.  What FD does is give groups a chance to avoid a total wipe.  I succeed at this a lot more than I fail.  Easily 90%+ success rate.  (side note: against the higher level multidot mobs I find myself fighting with groups, I don't wait until everyone is dead before I FD, I'll step back from combat early enough that I can get in 2-3 tries.  This almost always works.  When the healer(s) go down, the time to start FD'ing is usually not far off).  Everyone knows that FD is not automatic, but I find that it works much more often than not if you give yourself enough time to retry if it doesn't work the first time. 

As for utility, we provide some, but certainly not as much as other clases.  As a Harm monk, I'm pretty sure most people I group with are not even aware of the utility I provide.  Lowering mob damage mitigation by 15%, reducing mob damage by 50% for 8 seconds, pushing mobs out of stances, jin surging to improve group dps - these are all things I do.  Other clases when they add a buff, you see that icon for the next few hours, it's always there, everyone sees the benefit provided by the class that gave them that buff.  Monk buffs/debuffs occur in the middle of fights, people don't usually take the time to scroll over little icons that appear for a few seconds while fighting.  Am I the best puller? No, but I am very capable of pulling.  Am I the best mezzer?  No, but I have a mez.  On top of all of this, I am able to do decent damage (I agree it should be higher, but it is not insubstantial).     

You know a class has problems when there are abilities that never get used or don't work as intended.  The monk class certainly has its share of those.  But to say we are the least desired class or lack utility, that has just not been my experience.  This is exactly the kind of thing I worried about when I was in my mid-teens.  I was afraid that monks would be ineffective and I would have trouble finding groups because of it.  That's just not been the case for me.     



Well I am glad you dont have trouble finding groups.  I can almost never find a pickup group when my friends are not on.  As far as FD goes in dungeons... I know when to FD,  I know its not automatic and it shouldnt be.  The case you bring up is semi valid.  How about when you are wiping in an area that is bad and repops are happening.  You have to drag to a safe spot to rez people.  This is when it really becomes buggy and harry.  This is when you will encounter the things I see.

I am a harm monk too.  The utility you speak of.. yes 15% mitigation is ok but it hardly does anything really.  Solo a mob with it then solo the same mob without it and see how much difference it makes. Reducing mob strength by 50% for 8 secs ... can only be done if you are tanking and if you are lucky enough to parry and if that parry actually sets it off.. plus a high end cost so you have to hope to have enough end to use it.  8 secs is hardly worth it. Pushing mobs out of stances... how many mobs do you run into that are in a stance instead of just buffed?  Jin surge.. cost a buttload of jin... does pratically nothing.. you do know that an auto attack will use it up right?  Are you the best (insert all the the things mentioned here) , no you are not and you readlly admit that.  That is the problem, we are not the best of anything.  Every offensive fighter can do what we do and do it better.  That has been my complaint all along.  We are out dpsed and out utility by 2 of the 3 other offensive fighters.  We are out dps'd by the third and will probably be out utilitied by them soon.

We are the least desired offensive fighter .. its common statistics.. bards as good dps sometimes better, and have better utility.  Why pick a monk over a bard?  Rangers way better dps and way more utility.  Why pick a monk over a ranger.  Rogues way more dps and probably just as good utility.  Why pick a monk over a rogue?  Why are one of, if not the least played class currently?

Im glad you are having fun playing your monk,  I am too.  But you have to atleast see that we have alot of problems.  If they are not spoken about and/or remained unfixed, eventually we will become extinct.  People will eventually realize how much better the other offensive fighters are and you will find less and less monks and less and less groups for monks.
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Soluss
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2007, 10:16:20 AM »

Soluss my post was mean to be slightly sarcastic in nature however, here is what you have to look forward to...

1) FD2 is a 4 sec refresh so you get twice as many chances to fail before you die.

If you know your party is wiping back off about 15m from fight and FD there... much better success rate if you are not under the mobs, make sure party dies where it is and doesn't run over you.

2) Goading Slap 2 is 800 hate and does work fairly well if you use it near start of fight and tank is any good.

3) The assist the bard thing was mostly sarcastic as was the pushing hands and jin surge thing.

I am not happy, search previous posts by me and i have pointed out numerous things i find wrong with our class... I can't even solo 2 dots my level in mostly yellow gear efficiently, and sarcasm helps me deal with being a gimp. Tongue I love the idea behind the monk class, but think we need a major rework by Sigil. Was giving Clerics a significant DPS increase really more important than dealing with our stuff???



Ok i didnt realize it was sarcasm =)
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Miso
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2007, 11:02:08 AM »

As you can see from my posts, I completely agree that monks need reworking.  Some things don't work at all, aren't working as intended or are never used because they provide no benefit.  Even taking all of this into account, I like my monk, don't plan on rerolling and, most importantly, I know I contribute when grouped. 

Your FD example is a situation I have faced.  I am sure I have suffered more than one death because mobs continued to aggro after I succesfully FD and I wasn't able to succesfully re-FD to break their aggro.  For me, this just doesn't happen often to call it a huge problem.  It is certainly something I want them to fix, but I can play around it for now and would much rather have the Devs fix some bigger issues.  I die much more because of CTD's than I do because FD isn't working right.  As for the utility we provide, no I cannot execute a debuff that will cripple a mob or result in his death in 2 hits.  When I reduce mob damage mitigation, that means the entire party is doing more damage.  I agree it is not noticeable for any single hit, but an entire group doing more damage on each hit for the entire fight?  That is certainly noticeable.         

The thing that bothers me is when people that don't play a monk see the posts where it's one complaint after another about monks, their impression of the class is what is contained in those posts.  I think these types of posts also lead some lower level monks to regret rolling a monk and to give up on the class when there is no need to.  The complaints raised by many are valid, I just don't agree that it's as bad as some describe and that there is little good to be found about monks.  I look forward to the fixes and improvements I am sure will be coming, it will make my class that much better.  Until then, yes, monks have issues that need to be addressed, but we are still a viable class that (I find) brings benefits to groups.
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LeadFoot
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2007, 12:27:23 PM »

I have a lvl30 monk on Flamehammer.  While I think the monk needs a little love, I certainly don't think it is as bad as people keep saying.  We certainly need our DPS enhanced.  We are currently above Bard, but we need to be a good bit higher.  I do not have trouble finding groups.  I have never been turned down for a group because I am a monk.  Nerve Strike is great.  I wish we did not have to be out of combat , but still is great.  I think they should change the cool down though.  It would be better if the cool down reset once the mob that was stunned was broke from stun. 

People say that Tiger Stance is broke.  Well I happen to be in Tiger stance 90% of the time, so it can't be all that bad.  I wish the endurance cost was slightly less, but still a great stance.  Harmonious stance needs some love as it has absolutely no use in battle and really only good for long travel.  Crane Stance needed to be nerfed a bit, but was definitely nerfed too hard.

They definitely need to put more monk weapons in the game.  All I ever find is swords and axes.  Why do fists and wraps and claws never drop?  And why do they never have dex and str?  So yeah, this needs to be looked at.

All in all, I enjoy playing my monk.  I like the FD ability and think it offers plenty of use.  I hope our DPS gets increased, and am anxious to see if the next patch actually brings any benefit to us.
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Soluss
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2007, 01:17:10 PM »

As you can see from my posts, I completely agree that monks need reworking.  Some things don't work at all, aren't working as intended or are never used because they provide no benefit.  Even taking all of this into account, I like my monk, don't plan on rerolling and, most importantly, I know I contribute when grouped. 

Your FD example is a situation I have faced.  I am sure I have suffered more than one death because mobs continued to aggro after I succesfully FD and I wasn't able to succesfully re-FD to break their aggro.  For me, this just doesn't happen often to call it a huge problem.  It is certainly something I want them to fix, but I can play around it for now and would much rather have the Devs fix some bigger issues.  I die much more because of CTD's than I do because FD isn't working right.  As for the utility we provide, no I cannot execute a debuff that will cripple a mob or result in his death in 2 hits.  When I reduce mob damage mitigation, that means the entire party is doing more damage.  I agree it is not noticeable for any single hit, but an entire group doing more damage on each hit for the entire fight?  That is certainly noticeable.         

The thing that bothers me is when people that don't play a monk see the posts where it's one complaint after another about monks, their impression of the class is what is contained in those posts.  I think these types of posts also lead some lower level monks to regret rolling a monk and to give up on the class when there is no need to.  The complaints raised by many are valid, I just don't agree that it's as bad as some describe and that there is little good to be found about monks.  I look forward to the fixes and improvements I am sure will be coming, it will make my class that much better.  Until then, yes, monks have issues that need to be addressed, but we are still a viable class that (I find) brings benefits to groups.

Im not trying to debate you.  Nor am I saying the monk is unplayable. For the mitigation, i agree it is somewhat helpful.  However it is not much compared to what other classes can provide.  Try in group then if you want to debate that aspect of it.  In group pull a mob and use the mit debuff.  Then pull the same mob and don't use it.  Was there much of a difference? You say you feel you contribute to a group.  Sure you do.  The point however is that any other offensive fighter can contribute more to a group.  In essense saying you are actually hurting a group because they could have filled a spot with a ranger(more dps, more utility), a rogue(more dps, just as good utility), or a bard( same dps, more utility). Doing so would make the group much more effective then selecting a monk instead. See the problem?  We need to outshine atleast in one area to be a viable class.  Currently we do not.  Does that make us unplayable? No.  It does however make us way below the balanced curve. 

Do I want it to sound like noone should play the class? No.  Do I love my class and am I going to continue to play it? Of course.  That does not mean we don't need changes.  That also does not mean that if we dont get them I will always stay with the monk.  I am going to give them time to fix it and see how they play this thing out.  When I see that they are done with the class passes and no more is comming, if the monk still is not up to par, i will be leaving.  In order to get changes you have to let them know what is wrong.  They don't physically play these classes enough to see what we can. They need our input or nothing will ever be done.  I do agree that some people have posted in some ways completely exaggerating things to make it sound like the monk is completely unplayable.  However they have also provided alot of very good input in the same postings.  At this point all we have gotten is the nerf bat and everyone who plays a monk knows we need to be fixed not nerfed.
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Vinjin
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2007, 05:19:58 PM »

Im not trying to debate you. 

Honestly, you may want to step back and take a look at your posts before stating this. I think you have nearly 10 posts in this thread alone. We all get how disappointed you are in the monk class but your persistence is bordering on crusade levels now. You're certainly entitled to your opinion but posting it in basically every other thread is getting to be a bit much.

The "monks can't get groups" thing really needs to be put to rest. There are plenty other reasons that could lead to someone not getting a group over the fact that Monks currently finish 3rd in the melee pecking order. Besides, given the DPS model laid out by Talisker, a monk can even outshine both rogues and rangers with the right group and fast kill rates. And while this game certainly has it's share of min/maxers trying to form the "perfect" group in an effort to eek out the absolute highest possible kill/XP rate, there are far, far more people in the game who simply don't mind, or don't care about that kind of stuff. If you're of the former, more power to you, but that being the case, you need to accept the good with the bad then. For me personally, I'll take a player who is enjoyable and fun to group with any day of the week and twice on double XP day over a DPS king pushing the group every single minute to max his XP rate.

Everyone agrees that we need some attention. It's been stated ad nauseum. I'm sure it will continue to be stated even well after the proverbial "laserbeams from the eyes" (TM) patch. People just need to give the devs a chance to analyze the data and make the proper corrections. Besides, it's FAR better for us as players to have the devs review the data and make sound adjustments to our class the first time rather than make rash changes that risk overcompensating and getting reversed later on. We saw enough of that early on with EQ.
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