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December 02, 2008, 11:23:34 PM

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Author Topic: Am I doing something seriously wrong or?  (Read 1174 times)
Ruckus
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« on: October 03, 2008, 01:49:07 AM »

Greetings,

Me and a friend decided to try VG again after a long break to check out GU6 etc and after a bit of warming up we decided to fight one mob each to compare dps. I'm 46 drunken monk and he's 45 disciple. We fought lvl 48 and 47 3- dotters.I know this is not scientific but in all the cases we tried this it seemed pretty clear that his mobs went down faster than mine. This didn't change much when i tried different stances. He was always in his dps stance.

I was wielding a 2-hander Flawless Guardian's martial staff of venom and he was dual wielding some yellow lvl 30 handwraps. My str was 592, his was 513. My dex 478 his 250. None of us has any good gear. We've both played a lot of MMOs for almost 10 years raiding and non-raiding, different classes and we're about the same skill so it's not a case of him being an exceptional player and me watching TV while doing auto-attack.

So....what the hell is wrong here? I noticed I seemed to crit very very little which of course doesn't help dps much...do i have to use dual wielding and only macro in the staff for chains? I'm gonna try that to see if that helps matters.

I hope I'm missing something vital here. He can of course solo much better than me but if he out-dps me as well while having utilities and heals that is a bit much.

Any insights whether this is the state of the classes or if it's likely that i'm doing something wrong would be welcome  Smiley
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Monk01
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2008, 07:45:29 AM »

Being sarcastic about the recent changes, I would say that you hit the nail on the head. There is very little difference in the DPS of various classes now. Offering some insight, the Drunken style is the best burst DPS class still, but you are limited by your abilitity timers. You will continue to be underpowered till 50 when you will then have to rely on your chains and accessory abilitites to really maximize your damage. Even then its sill sometimes luck of the random number generator as to how much damage you will put out. They are really leaning towards more cookie cutter class makeups now, and dont expect it to change for awhile.
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Grack
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2008, 09:16:05 AM »

Yup! You are right.
It's sad but true. Currently there is no reason at all to play a monk.
a disciple can do what a monk can, and also heal.

I was playing in a group in Trengal Keep.
2 monks, 2 bards and 1 disc.
The disciple ALWAYS managed to gain aggro.
I was trying to go full out dps and still could not match the disc.

I asked him what he was doing and all he says is: a lot of 4K hits.
Well, at 29 I don't think I have YET to do a 4K hit.

Something is VERY wrong with monks.
there is no enjoyable reason to play one.

- you don't do any kind of impressive damage (not even close)
- you can't kite
- you have a 1-shot heal so basically worthless and might as well FD

The only redeeming value is the ability to mez a little and you can tank (but why bother?)
Why tank when I can just play a different class that is fun to play.
Seems like a disc is the way to go.
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 12:06:30 PM »

In parses when all out dpsing the monks are usually 20% or higher on dps.  When discs are focusing on healing the monks are about 45% or higher on dps.  That's still significant dps from the disc but definitely not close to on par with the monks.

A monk that has the disciple 1/6sec jin buff on plus other disc buffs and similarly geared will EASILY pull well ahead of a disc.  Comparing the (pre50) lowest dps monk class in an isolated scenario is hardly representative of the norm.  I'm pretty sure melee specced turgin shaman and clerics solo can sustain pretty decent dps comapred to quite a few classes thanks to their endurance regen buff.  Or that bards solo will out dps quite a few other dps classes solo.  But if you put similar geared melee dps in the same group with them they pull far ahead.

And your disc claiming that he's getting a lot of 4k hits at level 29 is lying through his teeth.  Mine at level 50 with his dps set on and APW (legion's choking grasp) may do that.  But at 29 there is no way.  The reason why a disc pulls aggro hard at 29 is because they constantly use their big AE heals weather they need to or not in conjuction with not using their deaggro, deaggro stance, or FD regularly.

One of the disc finisher chains on a 1min timer is a 400%weap +X damage move that also triggers a strong group heal followed by another 400% + Xstep and a strong group heal over 15sec.

Since disc can use clairity to force personal crits for 5sec. they can crit a damage move followed by 2 critted 400%+x steps IN ADDITION to 2 critted group heals all done inside melee range for full aggro.

Discs that do this have grabbed aggro with this move for about as long as I can remember, not just after GU6.  My harmo monk will EASILY out dps my disc even solo (our free high damage counter is a huge factor there esp leading off with RitW).  But if you factor in the total aggro of heals plus damage the disc is definitely capable of generating more total aggro.

While I do believe that the core monk needs more util to balance out properly in addition to mend being on a much lower cooldown (1min) its certainly a capable class and in APW fights where the mobs dump aggro and try to flip targets monks can safely maintiain MUCH MUCH higher dps than any other class.  Makes Admiral fights about 10x easier.  In group content with healers that actually know how to manage their aggro monks make great tanks in a pinch being able to lead off with RitW etc. so they take minimal hurt giving the group time to debuff and CC and in general make situations managable.  Additionally their ability to plant aggro on the tank is pretty damn handy and can be boosted with a dropped upgrade later on.

They are underpowered at the moment.  But they are typically still at the top of our raid dps charts. 

You do damage on par (and by our parses typically higher) than other dps classes
You can split pull safer than any other class by a long shot
You can dramatically increase your duability for a reasonable durration on demand
You can easily keep your aggro extremely low and plant aggro on others allowing you to damage enemies early into a fight instead of waiting for the tank to grab aggro
You can safely attempt to rescue a healer that has aggro with your intercept unlike the other melee dps classes
When mobs are stunable you can keep one out of combat (which unlike mez does not restore the mobs hps)
(if you are harmonious you have quite a few nice debuffs in your arsenal as well)
(if you are drunken at level 50 your burst dps is enormous, prior you are a decent group content tank)
(if you are dragon your corona is damn nice against fire/ice mobs)

That said monks are one of the worst solo classes in the game.  So if you play to solo, yeah its not the best choice.  If you play as part of a group or as a group's tank then its a different story.  Trying to claim that aggro is a pure measure of dps is silly.  Any healer can pull aggro if they really want to in most situations doesn't matter who is tanking.  But since disc heal from melee range and can force crit their group heal a poorly played disc is an aggro nightmare.  Take a step back and look at the big picture.  Wink
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Tangaroo Tulkas
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 11:48:46 AM »

I tend to agree with the monk grandmaster kinda.  The dps of a raid lvl monk can be greater than rogue/ranger/sorc and other dps classes or extremely close depending on th eother dps 's group setup/strategy.  However as i have been lvling up a dsc.  I will say that in the lvl 25-29 range a equally geared dsc can come close to an equally geared monk in dps.  However they should still be a bit lower, but the difference is very small.  Now a very well geared dsc can absolutely cream a monk of the same lvl if his strategy isnt very good and/or his gear is lacking.  when gu6 went live they changed some abilities that changed the order of spell rotation for monks and made it a bit harder imo to be on top. 

Post gu6 monks in my opinion have to manage jin and endurance a lot better to produce decent dps.  Before you might have just gotten lucky with a different order and poor management b/c our refresh timers were so low everything seemed like an i win strategy.  I would keep in mind a couple things...1) you have a reaction auto counter that is not on global cooldown and 2) crescent kick is not on global cooldown.  Also i would suggest playign around with three types of "macro orders"...1) that uses high endurance(20 or more)/ low dmg abilities that is a pure jin build(examples include boundless fists, flying kick chain), 2) uses high dmg abilities low endurance costs(10 or less) and/or jin(examples include 1k chain, palm explodes the heart)  3) uses high endurance/ moderate dmg abilities(examples include staggering punch). I would also suggest trying all of your abilities to see which ones produce the largest hits.  IE i didnt list every ability for every monk i only gave some examples from a drunken monk perspective.  Parsing can be extremely useful for finding the higher hit per attack abilities that you arent possibly using enough of or maximizing. From my experience in terms of highest avg hit per attack the order is palm explodes the heart>1k chain>old aoe monk chain>impossible drunken palm>Ashen hand>Staggering Punch>crescent kick>flying kick chain>boundless fists(i might have missed some and again i stress this is from a drunken perspective).    Since i have been lvling up a second monk to play with lower lvl troubles i have found that using this strategy is still valid for producing a lot more dps since you manage jin and end more consistently.  At the raid lvl if you want to maximize your dps i think this strategy is neccessary.  Of course some other monks probably play differently i have found this to be adequate for me.

Edit: realized what i said didnt make sense after a friend asked me a question about the post.  so i wanted to clarify a couple things.


« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 10:44:59 PM by Tangaroo Tulkas » Logged
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