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Author Topic: Monk bugs / issues (No Drama)  (Read 22062 times)
Quinn the Mighty
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2007, 02:27:06 PM »

Is this list somehow getting to the developers somehow?

If there is anything that I would like to see changed for monks it would be:

     Have our skills SCALE! 

Almost all of our abilities are based off a set damage amount.  We could have the most uber of weapons and the damage of our moves would be the same as every other monk out there (except white DPS).  All of the other classes that I have played or spoken with those that are playing, have abilities that do damage based on a certain % of the weapon damage.  This would be especially important for chains and finishers.  All of ours are a basic set amount.  Its frustrating when I am grouped with rangers, rogues, and even bards who regularly get crits over 2k when I am lucky to see a crit over 1k once a night. 

Another issue, maybe someone here can explain, is why is it that even when I have a rare equal level knuckles/handwrap/claws equiped that my DPS is higher with no weapon equiped?  Also along the same lines, when I have no weapon equiped, my hand to hand skill nor any weapon skill under Weapon Specialization go up.  So what factor is the monks use of no weapons based on?


One thing to add:  Why do our combat reactions cost so much damn endurance?  I dont mean the chain/finishers, but the others.  I dont use them at all so I dont remember the names.  On my DK, the combat reactions had a ZERO end cost, yet ours cost something like 37?

Quick answers: Yes this list is going to sigil, DPS is being looked at, Itemization is also being looked at, and end costs may be there as is to promote more strategic use.

~QTM
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 02:32:57 PM by Quinn the Mighty » Logged
Quinn the Mighty
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2007, 02:36:37 PM »

Quote from: Jojo
Got an upgrade to Foolhardy Swagger at level 36, and it does the exact same thing as the level 26 version, same jin cost. The only thing I could think of was that it had less resist rates, but I didn't think thats how resists work.

Edit: Foolhardy Swagger is a Drunken Monk Style ability.

If you could check and see what the dodge value is on the tool tip it would help me find out if the ability was cloned and not updated. If the 2 have the same tool tips i'll add it to the list.

~QTM
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Bonz
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2007, 03:01:35 PM »

I'd also like to add that we have a counter called Stinging Backfist... which opens up upon a successful dodge.

Through the teens this spell has a 27 endurance cost but the damage it provides is less than Boundless Fist.  Since Boundless fist is an instant refresh/recast for 20 endurance and does more damage, it makes stinging backfist useless.

Now this may change when it upgrades... but I don't think so.

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Vinjin
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2007, 04:51:58 PM »

3. I think monks should be on a separate hp table then the other offensive fighters, let them but similar to the warrior in their line in where they get the most hps for the archtype. Not only this but they are the only offensive class aside from rogues (who will get poisons and have hte best situational dps of all fighters) that have to actually be in melee to do their damage. Example being warriors get 10 hps per stam, rest of defensive fighters and monks get 8, rest of offensive fighters get 7 etc.) This will allow them to take more punishment than other offensive fighters, but still wont be able to take as well as any defensive fighter due to lack of migitation.

I think you have some decent suggestions but this one doesn't quite make sense to me. What's the logic behind asking for Monks to have an added constitution benefit over all other offensive fighters? You said something about Monks are the only ones besides Rogues who have to melee. Are you saying Bards and Rangers don't melee? And even if true, what does that have to do with HPs since in most groups, none of them will be tanking anyway? This logic makes perfect sense for defensive fighters because tanking is what they're supposed to do. From an offensive fighter perspective though, I suppose I just don't see what Monks do as primarily a DPS class that warrants a decided advantage in HPs over the other classes in our archetype.

Perhaps if Monks are officially deemed as the only offensive fighter class designed to be an off-tank this *might* make sense, but I don't know if that's currently true or not. You could certainly make the case that a Drunken could fill this role but again, this is very specialized. So much so that I don't think it would be fair to the other offensive classes nor to non-Drunken monks. If it were to happen, I suspect we'd see quite a few min/maxers switch their styles to drunken to gain the added HP benefit, which would subsequently create an player imbalance within our own class.

In these games, HPs are everything (especially in the raiding game). Any min/maxer out there will tell you that even the slightest advantage in this category is almost always worth the trouble of obtaining it.
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jojo
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2007, 05:08:02 PM »

Quote from: Jojo
Got an upgrade to Foolhardy Swagger at level 36, and it does the exact same thing as the level 26 version, same jin cost. The only thing I could think of was that it had less resist rates, but I didn't think thats how resists work.

Edit: Foolhardy Swagger is a Drunken Monk Style ability.

If you could check and see what the dodge value is on the tool tip it would help me find out if the ability was cloned and not updated. If the 2 have the same tool tips i'll add it to the list.

~QTM

Foolhardy Swagger I taunts all mobs around me for 5 attacks. Foolhardy Swagger II does the same exact thing, same jin costs, same refresh, as far as I can tell the tooltips are the exact same.  Also, the tooltips still say range 0 even tho I think the range is around 10m.
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jojo
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2007, 05:27:37 PM »


Currently, there is an evasion penalty while dual wielding showing on the off-hand tooltip. This penalty at level 36 is anywhere from 6.45% to 6.75% depending on which weapons are equipped. Now this doesn't update the Defense tooltip or the evasion on the Dexterity tooltip. It would be nice to know if it is being applied or not, and removed if not. If it is being applied, it should be updating the Defense tooltip. I also think that there should be no penalty for dual wielding handwraps, or other Hand to Hand weapons. 6%+ is an unreal amount to lose after the 'avoidance nerf' as that is almost everything that I currently get from Dexterity. Why would I EVER want to dual wield Hand to Hand weapons then? They already give minimal if no dps increase, even having same level rare weapons, even the stats aren't worth the minimal dps increase (if there is any) and the evasion penalty.
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Vazerai Mordorus
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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2007, 05:59:11 PM »

3. I think monks should be on a separate hp table then the other offensive fighters, let them but similar to the warrior in their line in where they get the most hps for the archtype. Not only this but they are the only offensive class aside from rogues (who will get poisons and have hte best situational dps of all fighters) that have to actually be in melee to do their damage. Example being warriors get 10 hps per stam, rest of defensive fighters and monks get 8, rest of offensive fighters get 7 etc.) This will allow them to take more punishment than other offensive fighters, but still wont be able to take as well as any defensive fighter due to lack of migitation.

I think you have some decent suggestions but this one doesn't quite make sense to me. What's the logic behind asking for Monks to have an added constitution benefit over all other offensive fighters? You said something about Monks are the only ones besides Rogues who have to melee. Are you saying Bards and Rangers don't melee? And even if true, what does that have to do with HPs since in most groups, none of them will be tanking anyway? This logic makes perfect sense for defensive fighters because tanking is what they're supposed to do. From an offensive fighter perspective though, I suppose I just don't see what Monks do as primarily a DPS class that warrants a decided advantage in HPs over the other classes in our archetype.

Perhaps if Monks are officially deemed as the only offensive fighter class designed to be an off-tank this *might* make sense, but I don't know if that's currently true or not. You could certainly make the case that a Drunken could fill this role but again, this is very specialized. So much so that I don't think it would be fair to the other offensive classes nor to non-Drunken monks. If it were to happen, I suspect we'd see quite a few min/maxers switch their styles to drunken to gain the added HP benefit, which would subsequently create an player imbalance within our own class.

In these games, HPs are everything (especially in the raiding game). Any min/maxer out there will tell you that even the slightest advantage in this category is almost always worth the trouble of obtaining it.

Maybe I wasnt clear enough, I never ment to imply rangers or bards dont need to melee, I am saying each has an alternate way of doing damage (Bow with Ranger, Spells with Bard). However Monks have only one real way to deal damage, that is melee. The reason I suggest this is because Sigil seems to be gearing all classes to have only a specific amount of melee evasion.

(At level 23 my evasion is a non factor in pve, as I rarely if ever dodge or parry, maybe twice a fight no more than 4 times.) Rangers and Bards can snare a mob and retreat or kite, while still doing damage, and rogues can stun and most likely will be able to snare once poisons are implemented. Monks have no option but to FD which clears aggro and resets the mobs hps. Obviously if she or he is grouped it wont matter, however not all people are always in a group; and monks out of all the offensive fighter classes  are the most likely to be an offtank.  Keep in mind while we would have nearly the same hps as a paladin and DK we still could no way come close to their migitation.

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Vinjin
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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2007, 06:38:26 PM »

Thanks for the clarification. I see what you're saying, but I'm still not sure an added constitution benefit is the right solution though. If the problem is evasion, or more specifically for Monks our perceived lack of it, then the answer should be to modify our defensive stats to adjust accordingly and boost our overall avoidance. As most MMO vets know, avoidance is a tricky mechanic to balance correctly and almost always takes several iterations to get right. Being a "soft" mechanic means you simply cannot pinpoint how effective it is or needs to be at any one point in time.

On the other hand, HPs are absolute and extend far beyond just one mechanic like avoidance. For instance, an added HP benefit through constitution would ultimately give monks a decisive edge over other offensive classes against AE spells, something that has no ties to melee evasion at all. Again, I see an imbalance there that favors Monks for no real solid reason other than, just because.

Please understand that I don't mean to single you out or anything. I'm sure all of my ideas above have holes in them as well. My take is that it's easy for us as a community to simply compile a litany of requests that we want for our class. It's our responsibility though to ensure they are reasonable, well thought out and are prioritized. I'm not saying your ideas aren't any of this. I'm just stating that we need to be careful in what we wish for because regardless of any changes that Monks get, rest assured other classes are taking notes and looking for similar changes to their own class. And they're usually looking to one up ya in the process.
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Mauve
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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2007, 09:08:29 PM »

an Issue:
Storm Dragon Stance / Magnificant Storm Dragon.
The style is listed as adding lightning damage in return for draining 1 jin every 4 seconds (think its 6 seconds on magnificant, cant log in to check atm)

Jin currently isnt being lost, however the damage add on lightning is also very small, The style needs to add a lot more lightning damage and add the jin drain, OR take off the jin drain from tool tip and improve the damage just a bit.
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Daniel
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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2007, 02:56:38 AM »

ability: Sundering Dragon's Claw (or something like that, learned at level 42 i believe)
tooltip on this skill says it's a finisher but is actually an adv. finisher. it's also supposed to be a dot for 800-900dmg or something, but does nothing.

as someone mentioned before, storm dragon should stack with secrets otherwise secrets (except celerity) are useless. and also seeing all the buffs last for more than 20seconds would be nice. secret of transcendence lasts for 1minute rather than the 20seconds as the tooltip says.

general issue with the game itself which would help monks would be, when being off the ground too long while having agro, the mob will teleport right onto you. i'm sure any 34+ monks know what i'm talking about. this gets incredibly irritating when you're just jumping thru a zone and a mob decides to agro you, and won't stop hitting you because you're using soaring leap to go faster unless you fd. (i should mention to any monks who aren't lv34 yet, monks are probably the fastest class in the game at the moment from my own experience so far and if you have soaring leap and dont use it often because of that endurance cost, Aum Ti at lv40 will solve that for the most part)

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Laneus
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2007, 08:09:17 AM »

Ability: Aum Ti, level 40, says it's supposed to grant Parry and 20% cost reduction.  The parry bonus works but abilities still cost the same amount whether this is up or not.
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Quinn the Mighty
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2007, 12:46:43 PM »

Updated the main list

Added
  • Bug - Foolhardy Swagger II is a cloned version of I version down to tooltip.
  • Concern- DW Evasion Penalty post evasion adjustment
  • Issue: Storm Dragon Stance / Magnificant Storm Dragon: The style is listed as adding lightning damage in return for draining 1 jin every 4 seconds (think its 6 seconds on magnificant, cant log in to check atm) Jin currently isnt being lost, however the damage add on lightning is also very small, The style needs to add a lot more lightning damage and add the jin drain, OR take off the jin drain from tool tip and improve the damage just a bit.
  • Bug Sundering Dragon's Claw (or something like that, learned at level 42 i believe) tooltip on this skill says it's a finisher but is actually an adv. finisher. it's also supposed to be a dot for 800-900dmg or something, but does nothing. (Need more info)
  • Bug: Aum Ti, level 40, says it's supposed to grant Parry and 20% cost reduction.  The parry bonus works but abilities still cost the same amount whether this is up or not.

Removed
  • PVP FD issue as its working as designed

*DOH* Late for my meeting *Shakes fist in the air* KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

~QTM
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Vazerai Mordorus
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2007, 02:44:45 PM »

Quinn, just to point out you listed this thread as bugs/ issues/ suggestions; and so far I have only seen bugs/issues being listed. Is it possible that you could add a separate area on the initial posts for Suggestions.

I thought I brought to the table at least two very good suggestions to consider

1. put +crit on our abilities (IE boundless fist = 5% crit every time you use THAT ability, as it wont stack with white melee or anything other. This should help us crit a bit more to open up our real dps the finishers.)

2. Make certain spells, especially Iron Hand a longer lasting buff, with increased Jin cost. As is casting every minute does nothing but irritate the user. It reminds me of being a thane in DOAC when it first came out. Thanes had a self buff that you had to rebuff every 3 minutes. They finally changed it to an hour, which is much much better.

I suggest the class start actually using its meditation skill for something, making Iron Hand cost a full bar of jin but last for an hour would make us meditate to gether that much jin. (example at 23 my max jin is 14, so make it cost that, and 50 if Jin is 30 make it cost that etc.) This also allows us monks who use it, to keep our sanity and not have to cast it every minute.

And one debatable

1. I also suggested more hps, but it would seem that many of our fellow monks disagree, however I think its a fair tradeoff since we get very little Utility. (Yes FD is nice, however rogues will get stealth which is even nicer, and also poisons, and I wont have to mention bards or rangers as everyone knows they got insane utility.)
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Daniel
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2007, 04:49:28 PM »

  • Bug Sundering Dragon's Claw (or something like that, learned at level 42 i believe) tooltip on this skill says it's a finisher but is actually an adv. finisher. it's also supposed to be a dot for 800-900dmg or something, but does nothing. (Need more info)[
sorry for my vague description.
----[learned at lv42]
Sundering Dragon Claw I
38 Endurance
Dragon Mastery Finish
Refresh 2:00
Savagely tears through your opponent, inflicting a massive 891 to 941 damage over 6 seconds. Increases Jin by 1.
----
not sure if skill is meant to be a finisher. the skill becomes activated after a finisher so it should be a "dragon mastery adv. finisher"? also, the skill itself doesn't work at all. there is no dot, or initial hit damage.
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Daniel
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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2007, 04:52:53 PM »

a side note to the Aum Ti not working, it seems to be working as intended as far as endurance cost. just tested it ingame aswell.
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