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December 01, 2008, 01:46:51 PM

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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Huge monk nerfs « previous next »
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Author Topic: Huge monk nerfs  (Read 1607 times)
Sathuil Dkahl
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« on: September 05, 2008, 12:24:56 PM »

So, I play Sathuil on the Seradon server, I am a 50 monk.  I have played a monk for 9 years in EQ1, as well as a monk in Vanguard created shortly after release.  I am here due to monk changes that (I hope) are still being tuned. 

The APW armor, 5 set bonus, is being changed from a 5% chance to proc Fists of Celerity on self for 10 seconds, into a 5% chance to proc gain 2 jin.  This really did it in for the monk class on Vanguard for me.  Of course I will wait until I see changes on the live server, but right now (and yes, it is only on test server) monks are getting nerf bats right and left.  Harmonious suffers the most in DPS, and I really don't know if "any" of our debuffs are not being overwritten by other classes on raids.  Other styles suffer greatly as well.

If the 5 piece set is turned into gain 2 jin as a 5% proc, I will quit playing Vanguard.  And it's sad, because I like Vanguard.
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Xenophon
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2008, 01:03:35 PM »

The current 5-piece set bonus needs to be nerfed hard, I believe.  It's simply too powerful in its current form; what can they put in the game in the future that would make us want to upgrade it?  I'm not sure I'd like a +2 jin proc over other options, but to have a proc that doubles our damage and stacks with our other double damage skills is too much (btw, I'm not sure if it stacks, but I think it does.  If it doesn't, my mistake Smiley I'd still say it's over-powered, though not as much as if it stacked).

I wonder if it'd be reasonable to, instead of having a proc of +2 jin, have it passively increase the jin cap by x amount?  'Course, if they continue with the increased jin cost to ashen hand, I may enjoy the +2 jin proc more than I would currently Smiley  Those are the things that concern me about what the devs are doing.  I'm tryin to keep an open mind, but it seems that they are nerfing our abilities too far, based solely on over powered raider monks.
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Mulay
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2008, 01:34:52 PM »

From what I have seen the proc does stack with all other double damage abilities and ya it was a wee bit to much. But two jin proc is kinda pathetic. Would like to see somthing more along the lines of say 10% melee damage for so many seconds or something. Almost anything is better then what they gave us in return.

Atleast it is still only on test so hopefully it will be changed.
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Mulay Shini 50 Drunken
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2008, 02:26:49 PM »

From what I have seen the proc does stack with all other double damage abilities and ya it was a wee bit to much. But two jin proc is kinda pathetic. Would like to see somthing more along the lines of say 10% melee damage for so many seconds or something. Almost anything is better then what they gave us in return.

Atleast it is still only on test so hopefully it will be changed.

To be fair...a 2jin proc is pretty close to the 5piece buff of most of the other APW sets.

And Dkahl...this was absolutely needed.  The current live version of the 5piece set bonus makes such a large jump that if they reblance monk damage around it (which it appeared they were doing) there will be two kinds of monks.  Those with 5 peices of APW set armor that do OK...and everyone else who is horridly gimped.

I would MUCHLY prefer the 5 piece bonus brought in line with other classes than have the core monk abilities further nerfed to make up for it.  I'm rather ticked about the severe secret damage nerf as it is.  They kicked it down far enough that its not very practical to put any points in int again which kills options and diversity.  They also never addressed the rediculous harmonious tiger stance with far more +crit can can be actually used and too much endurance cost.

/sigh and here I just has flawless T5 jewlry made for my monkie with int on it...to play around with.  Cry
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Gruntz Denfarts
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2008, 02:37:07 PM »

Good thing its just test.
we will hash it out im sure. we just havent had time to test the new DPS for monks with this change yet.
nothing to get concerned about at this time tho.

happy gaming
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Oggtok
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2008, 01:09:56 PM »

No need to jump on test if your a drunken monk, the class is so butchered theres not much left to test..all you will do is find that self buffed your damage is comparible to a equally geared self buffed dreadknight.
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Monk01
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2008, 01:56:26 AM »

If they are chainging the monk apw armor proc (and they should its a bit too much, and 5% to jin is kinda lame) I would like to suggest changing it to a 5% chance to proc Jin Surge, its in the same vein of the original Fist of Celerity proc (short Burst dps increase) and its not as over powered, and it comes from our skill sets. If they are worried about it effecting other members make the proc self only vs the Regular group Jin Surge.

It would make the set effect useful vs the questionable Jin gain, and benefit all styles of monk.
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Fujitsu
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2008, 08:28:17 AM »

THey are trying to veer away from any procs that directly increase dmg.  It should be obvious but like others have said, the only thing in the next raid zone that would make me want to replace my 5 piece set is a 10% chance to proc for 10s+ or a 5% chance to proc for 20s+... making our dps even more inflated.


Drunken arent bad on test, our dps is way down but at the same time so is 90% of the other players, i have parsed darkwind, trinity, and bots, their monks are right up there with the rogues/sorcs.  granted they seem to be caping at 4kish instead of 6-8k, but its all close.

On the upside i now have more diverse options with my apw armor, i can get a bp of the risen and lose my 5 piece set and not be out any dps.  I agree with the secrets being to severe, as a monk with 1k str and 600-700 raid buffed int, i worked my ass off to get my secret damage this high  and for them to go down this far is really sad.
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Oggtok
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2008, 09:03:00 AM »

Raid buffed, sure monks are decent, especialy dragon, i have taken a few parses myself. Its unbuffed where drunken monk just got detroyed.  Doing similar damage to tank classes is just unacceptible. I think the devs have really missed the boat on most of the problems.  I wonder if they have even parsed extreme dps builds for tank and healer classes, as disc and warrior could likely hang dps wise to the raid monk on test.
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Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 08:36:04 AM »

I dont disagree at all.  I have been saying it from the start that they are doing it all wrong.  Sure raid dps is down, but solo / group dps is unacceptably low.

Sadly though they will nerf the snot out of us, and maybe 6 months from now they can undo some of it and fix it so it was only raid dps that was hurt, but what ever.  I have the strange feeling not many people will be left after gu6.  Not because of the re balance, but more because of the lack of new things to do.  A guild who has killed kotasoth in february has nothing left in this game. 

We've gotten dresla, and she was okay.  We got nerksawl and he was okay, but now is rather just a pita.  Fengrott's loot is terrible.  I mean what does gu6 have for raiders to look forward to...Varking? Come on now... 12 months of a cleared raid zone and we dont even get the pantheon yet.
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Oggtok
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 09:08:09 AM »

Warhammer might be fun =)
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 10:08:26 AM »

I was hoping that the devs would at least notably reduce the cooldown on mend so solo monks are not utterly obliterated by these changes.  Not so much luck.  Sad
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Draxs
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2008, 11:24:55 AM »

All I can say is try and be patient. If things are horribly out of whack I am positive they will be addressed.

As far as soloing, Monks are not supposed to be god at it. Soloing you got rogues who suck at it and then ya got us, in that order. We are a mostly Pure DPS class with little survivability if we choose to not FD. I know this changed from GU6 and how players were accustomed to playing but it does not mean that it should stay that way just because people got used to it. When the game launched we sucked at soloing (as it should have been), that changed when we got our revamp and people got used to it however IMO it never should have gotten that easy.

The change to 5 piece proc was supposed to give you more diversity and more ability to switch in Secret of Tanscendance 5% damage for 1(?) Minute, Jin Surge incase your in a stacked DPS group and this will beinfit DPS as a raid, More ashen hand attacks and or whatever else ya wanted to do with Jin. Jin is our backbone so any additional source of Jin is a nice bonus for all forms of monks.

As far as secret damage is concerned it was terribly overpowered. What other class gets an additional up to 2k+ added damage on every single attack they do, even auto-attack? If secrets had not taken a hit then other skills would have been slaughtered to accomodate this extra DPS. Maybe the secrets will get bumped back up to a higher proc rate, 50% maybe but if that happens I would suspect the damge will be cut in half to accomadate for DPS increase.

Overall raid DPS for a monk is still very nice, fully geared including dragon mace I can get 5400-5800ish on avg. I am usually top 3 on the parses.

Solo monks may indeed need some more fine tuning but I think alot of the players saying that they are broken and not worth playing think that Solo DPS should not have been affected at all and monks were not overpowered as soloers before, and to that end I don't agree personally.

Rogues are desinged to be top melee DPS and worst soloers. Monks are designed to be second highest melee DPS, why should they not be second worst soloing?
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Draxs
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Oggtok
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 03:50:50 PM »

    Sure secrets was way over powered but the better fix would be to lower the damage drasticly. Now are procs have procs I would have no problem if we had to crit secrets of fire to get 300 damage out of it, Then the dot proc potion of it would mean something. Same with secrets of ice, the snare portion of it was a great utility denied to reduce damage on a raid level. Would have been a much better fix to greatly reduce the damage on secrets of fire, and remove to damage portion on ice, and leave the utility.
     As for Ashen hands I hate that fix too, i'd rather see 400% weapon damage on 30 second timer then the current fix. Now monks have absolutely no burst damage outside of finishers. 
      I think for the most part the other fixes were good ones, I would have liked to have seen Errant strikes handled different, maybe not stacking w/ fist of celerity.
     Staggering punch change was......meh should be something alittle useful.
     I understand changes were needed, just wish alittle thought went into it, instead of just lets get there damage down as fast as possible.

(edit) I guess the dps to solo'iblity ratio only applies to melee dps........even then rangers/bards solo really well. Think peoples point is that the raid dps curve doesn't seem to apply at all solo/self buffed lvl.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 03:59:41 PM by Oggtok » Logged
Murugan
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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 05:36:18 PM »

Ashen hand is still burst DPS, it was lowered in damage some but really not that much to be honest (not as much as you would think with a 200% damage reduction).

Anyways it does more damage than most finishers we have, and sorry drax fists of transcendence is useless.

5% damage over 60 seconds does not make up for the lost jin you could be spending elsewhere.
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