Vanguard Monks - Grab your ankles

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December 01, 2008, 02:12:38 PM

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Vanguard Monks | Monk Discussion | Monk General | Grab your ankles

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Topic: Grab your ankles (Read 2765 times)

Fujitsu

Sensei

Karma: +23/-20
Posts: 847

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 07:53:10 AM »

Also im willing to bet the change to ashen hand from 10s to instant was due to the fact it turned drunken monks into 1 button wonders. We would staggering punch + crescent kick + boundless fist (4jin total) then sit there mashing boundless fist 5 more times till the timers on staggering punch and crescent kick were up.

Having the option of ashen hand is a lot nicer then pressing 123, 33333, 123, 3333 with an ashen hand every so often.

Also i dont know if you new drax but they added superior finishers for thundering fist, kick to the heavens, and (second hit of the ae). Not sure, the damage increase was decent though.

Now to just get more monk weapon options ><


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Hakuan

Desciple

Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 30

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 09:42:43 AM »

Quote from: Draxs on August 18, 2008, 07:45:49 AM

just to list a couple of positive changes so far.

Jin surge was reduced in damge but extended to 10seconds or 3 hits whichever comes first. So in a high DPS group this is actually a viable skill now as the group members have enough reaction time to take advantage of the buff.

Dragon monks DPS stance huge mit penalty was reduced, the current levels are IIRC 7/5/3% penalty's instead of the old values of which I don't recall but I do know 3rd level was 10% mit reduction. So they took away 7% of the mitigation penalty on that stance, which is really nice IMO we all have heard that complaint that comparitvely speaking the 2% more damage did not justify the 10% mit penalty.

Also iron fists was changed to add 104 INT as well and is now called iron resolve. It does not stack with other INT buffs but iirc it is the highest of all INT buffs so it will overwrite the others. This will really help group/solo play as they do not always have an INT buff of this magnitude available to them.

Just a comment also on ashen hand, this timer was removed most likely due to it was causing monks to just sit at max jin until ashen hand timer popped then rinse repeat, made the calss feel really odd to play. So now with the timer removed if you have the jin and wish to spend it on ahsen hand then you have the freedom to spam it for a quick burn if needed.

Another change I have not seen listed and also I have not confiremed anyway but I do think is in place is Secrets have moved to 25% proc rate from 50%.. I THINK.. don't quote me on that one knuppel2

also FYI my last few parses put me in the high 4k range roughly 4500-5000 on test with raid buffs, if the numbers we have been seeing thrown around that they wanted us somwhere under 5k is accurate then I do not expect to many more changes.

All in all I am happy with the changes, the fact that they are addressing some of the lackluster abilties as well is nice, it shows to me they are taking this time to actually evaluate the class rather than just a straight nerf. Basically it almost seems as a small revamp for us which we have been asking for a change to some of these lesser abilites for some time now.

Edited for spelling as well as copying to crosspost onto main forums.

while the mit penalty was reduced, storm dragon stance was reduced from 24% -> 18% so we gain 7% mit while loosing 6% damage. not really a worthwhile tradeoff imo.

jin surge is also a 15s refresh and only effects 1 hit again.

overall i really am not happy with the changes, i can barely handle a 3-dot who is 4-levels below me at the moment on test.


« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 10:00:05 AM by Hakuan »	Logged

Draxs

Grandmaster

Karma: +9/-5
Posts: 132

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 11:21:18 AM »

The reduction on the front end % was to help bring the DPS down, the Mit change was to address the long standing issue with that huge mit penalty.

Before that reduction to the %damage on the front end I was still hitting high 6's on the parses even with all the other changes in place.

That pretty much had to be done in order to get the numbers down, or else alot more skills would have gotten reduced even further, this way it was a simple change and did not require each and every ability we have to get nerfed. Very clean and alot better this way IMO.


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Draxs
50 Dragon Monk
Brotherhood of the Spider
Xeth

Hakuan

Desciple

Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 30

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 11:39:19 AM »

and just re-reading some stuff on the VG site.... and laughing in a sad pathetic sort of way....

the following is a quote from talisker's "upcoming combat fix explained"

Upcoming Combat Fix Explained

Fusoya and I collaborated on this so thanks to him for providing data and feedback.

Greetings all, just wanted to make a post regarding the upcoming combat bug fix. We know more than a handful of you are worried that rogue / monk and other melee DPS are going to have their abilities nerfed dramatically, as a result of this fix. Let me assure you. The dmg of your abilities isn't being touched. I repeat, none of the damage numbers for your abilities are being touched. No refresh timers are being changed and no costs are being increased. We hope to get this out for U6, but it won't be released until it is correct.

just made me chuckle. especially since i now know a lot more about how those 500k hits were coming about, and the 3-part exploit that was required. fun fun.

anyway, im done with this. between the bullSNARF nerfs coming in gu6, sony's total lack of support for the vg team, and the fact the vg team can't even get simple things right (how many people are wearing faction armor?) let alone "balance" classes its just too much hassle and not as much fun. i just do not see them as being able to make vanguard live to its potential, and i do see them turning it into a wow clone. the game has lost its immersion and fun for me, starting with the ridiculous factional mounts and now crappy class rebalancing and sparklies for every ground spawn quest item.

in short i do not feel that testing their game for free, or paying to play a bug ridden game that is slowing having the life ground out of it by bad developer decisions is worth my time or money.

good luck to all of you who are still enjoying the game.


« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 11:48:17 AM by Hakuan »	Logged

Draxs

Grandmaster

Karma: +9/-5
Posts: 132

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 11:52:29 AM »

Yeah, unfortunately I do not think they anticipated just how much damage monks were doing that was not a direct result of that coding. After the flat damage change and pre-ability changes my DPS numbers were almost identical as a dragon monk. Of course I never use quickening jolt and being a dragon I only have FoC and 2 1k hits in my chain.

Anyway I was still doing way too much damage compared to where they thought we would land so it of course would actually require changes they had previously not forseen.


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Draxs
50 Dragon Monk
Brotherhood of the Spider
Xeth

Fujitsu

Sensei

Karma: +23/-20
Posts: 847

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 05:15:11 PM »

Yeah at first glance taliksar thought all monks parsing 6k+ were due entirely to the flat damage exploit.

Then when they fixed that and other raid wide dmg bugs, there were monks still sitting at 6kish. Saddly they never thought that was due almost entirely to refresh haste (taking skills like thousand fist to 20ish seconds), secrets, and ashen hand.


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Hakuan

Desciple

Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 30

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 08:28:51 AM »

logged on to test to check out the new models for SNARFs and grins (my account is active until the 25th) and decided to log in to hak there and my sorc who is 50 as well. wow what a difference. hak is in RI/Swamp/APW gear and the sorc is in Pantheon/Xenn gear with i think 2 drops from heg. the result?

hak is currently dragon on test, and he struggles and i mean <10% health left, to kill a magmite ravager outside afrit.

the sorc? consistenly 3-shots them.


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Fujitsu

Sensei

Karma: +23/-20
Posts: 847

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2008, 03:39:42 PM »

seems balanced to me /sarcasim off

All jokes aside, they havent retuned group/solo/raid mobs hps yet, and like i said from the start, these changes hurt solo/group players more then raiders. Its a sad sad day when i can barely kill a blue 3 dot as a drunken/dragon monk.


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Hakuan

Desciple

Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 30

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2008, 05:19:12 PM »

no, the sdad day is when they decide that instead of retuning raid armor (lets face it the 5 piece proc screws us) the decide to screw everyone who doesnt have it.

its these kind of idiotic decisions that made me cancel. the game, in my opinion, does not have the resources to hire competent people to develop it.


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Hakuan

Desciple

Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 30

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2008, 06:19:12 PM »

wow so i just learned that all of the problems i am already having with the changes and dps etc.... do not include the only "fix" they were sposed to do to start with! thats right the flat damage "fix" will now be added on top off all the other crap.

im just gonna go ahead and say it now: the vanguard development staff is SNARFing clueless.

/edit
after a limited number of fights on test im now showing at a whopping 1150 dps. so to all those in 5 piece who are doing testing with the devs take it all off because right now we are just screwed with out it. balancing based on anbother damage multiplier effect is lunacy and thats what is happening.


« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 07:18:43 PM by Hakuan »	Logged

Mulay

Recruit

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 2

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2008, 09:12:13 PM »

The changes are not as bad as you are making them out to be. Our dps was to high so they are bringing us down. Casters where way to low so they are getting bumped no big deal it is as it should be.


« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 09:14:55 PM by Mulay »	Logged

Mulay Shini 50 Drunken
Trinity
Searadon

Hakuan

Desciple

Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 30

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2008, 09:47:11 PM »

Quote from: Mulay on August 20, 2008, 09:12:13 PM

The changes are not as bad as you are making them out to be. Our dps was to high so they are bringing us down. Casters where way to low so they are getting bumped no big deal it is as it should be.

i disagree, the changes are every bit as bad as i am saying. they have gutted the class until you get raid gear. end of story. literally on light blue 3 dots i now parse at 1100 dps.


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Fujitsu

Sensei

Karma: +23/-20
Posts: 847

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2008, 08:09:47 AM »

Haku is 100% right, these changes were to fix raiders, but ultimately they made non raiding monks almost worthless.

The big issues with dps come from
5 piece apw armor set
drunken monks with 4x thousand fists at 50 only
errant strike/fist of celerity stacking (and both stacking with jolt)
refresh haste (which is buged again atm on test)
secret damage.

When you cut through all the crap you now have monks doing 6-8% less dmg due to their stances, 200% less dmg per ashen hand, 75% less dmg due to secrets, etc.

All for changes that were poorly thought out to fix raiding dps. Now dont get my wrong they do fix raiding dps, monks no longer will parse 7k+ for sure. At the same time though the other 99% of monks who are level 1-49 got hit by a mack truck to the point were the now solo worse then even rogues,... and rogues were pretty darn bad before.


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Matsu

Desciple

Karma: +2/-0
Posts: 40

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2008, 08:52:49 AM »

As I was leveling up my Drunken monk (always was drunken. I like tanking) I was also leveling up my Paladin. The paladin has heals, boosts to damage. Group damage increasers, virtually limitless endurance for themselves and the group, etc. I figured my DPS would increase someday to offset that. I felt only slightly ahead of the paladin in that regard... the PALADIN (aka the worst DPS ever)

if I step back about 10-15 levels to about 35, we're looking at some pretty awful DPS at lower levels, for a DPS class, that's not good. Combine that with a very very low utility and we're talking nerfed to oblivion.

Higher Jin Cost on a lower damage Ashen hand, higher refresh on Cresent Kick, longer refresh on 1000 fist, a LOT less procs on secrets... all adds up to a good deal less DPS and lowered survivability (from less procs on secret of ice)

I mean, normally I'm quite happy playing an underpowered class, I took up my monk before the revamp and enjoyed it, but we're going back to that level of power and minus. I just chose them for their flashy moves (Which it apears secrets are fixed on test to not break animations. Huzzah!)

... I still don't know why they can't give Drunken monks a toggleable hate buff, a real force-taunt (like, 5 hits) and a better defensive stance (whats this BS about less accuracy? and it's downright awful at lower levels)

My recomendation would be to keep 1000 fists as it was, with a 1 min refresh timer and up the last two to 2 minutes. That'd be a much better fix without castrating the lower level drunkens. Make the Ice and Fire procs do less damage but on every hit, and put that stupid refresh timer back, or increase jin cost, OR lower damage. Just one, not two or three of these options!

That's my view on this. This is what I think in regards to lower level drunken monk, pre 40.

(I've done a little feedback on test server, and /bugged the drunken refresh stance as it was adding 10% refresh instead of lowering)


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Hakuan

Desciple

Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 30

Re: Grab your ankles

« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 09:14:15 AM »

i'll post this here then honest to god im done. someone else can take up a fight that is no longer worth fighting as my account expires in 2 days time and i will not be playing. the issue is going to be in the coding for multiple swing attacks. when they first discussed how they work with the flat damage "bug" they stated that effects such as FoC were adding 1 more swing effect on to the end of say 1k fists. i really think they are wrong just from looking at the combat logs. i think it is adding a second 1k attack, which means 3 more swings, not just 1. this gets exacerbated with drunken because it adds up to 8 more swings than intended throughout the chain. this is made even worse when you add errant stirke in which is adding not another swing but another full 1k fists attack, and then the 5-piece proc which is adding yet another. double all that with QJ and you have real problems.

the fact that the vanguard team has decided to do a 1 point calibration of damage using the absolute max damage point means that monks without a 5-piece apw proc are going to be substandard in their dps, and instead of a somewhat linear progression in dps as you advance you have a flat curve until you are raid geared, then it suddenly pops up. in this instance it really is the gearing which is creating one of the issues here.

As i stated at the beginning, i'm done with this now. i am sick of fighting the same people who swear MONKS are way overpowered and need the nerf bat. it has been obvious since day 1 on this issue that the VG team is only listening to a very limited number of people on this issue, and that they do not want to generate enough data to actually determine a cause for the problem. they simply want to take the easiest way out of this mess in the short term with out any thought to long term or game wide consequences.


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