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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Drunken Monks Role « previous next »
Poll
Question: What role would you like to see high end Drunken Monks fufill?
Don't touch them - 1 (3.6%)
Hate transfering monk - 11 (39.3%)
High Melee Damage - 5 (17.9%)
Salvage some raid tanking - 4 (14.3%)
Increase raid/group DPS - 4 (14.3%)
Other - 3 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 28

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Author Topic: Drunken Monks Role  (Read 4133 times)
Fusoya
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« on: May 14, 2008, 09:58:01 AM »

So as we all know the "tanking" monk cannot function as a tank in the high end game. My question to you is what role would you like to see them play. With the upcoming class balancing I feel that this path may become the least popular because it really doesn't offer too much now aside from DPS. I can't promise that this is a possible change yet, but it is something I would like to push for if there is enough demand.

Don't touch them - If you like how the discipline functions currently

Hate Transferring Monk - Instead of tanking themselves this option would allow them to provide a tank with large amounts of hate or reduce another allies hate by a decent amount. This would provide a utility aspect to raiding that would help the raid deal more damage overall with less fear of aggro bouncing around.

High Melee DPS - My thoughts on Dragon monks will be to add a bit more elemental damage to their arsenal (such as making Corona add a flat % to secret damage etc.), figured maybe we could make Drunken Monks the masters of normal combat damage since they already have Errant Strikes and the advanced 1k fist chain.

Salvage some Raid Tanking - Give Drunken Monks the ability to tank at least trash mobs in raid situations for limited periods of time without being killed in a single swing.

Increase Raid/Group DPS - Give drunken monks more abilities such as Jin Surge that increase the overall DPS of a group or raid in bursts instead of long duration buffs. Allowing us fun and active utility rather than just something passive like a bard song. Although Monk damage will be top 3 in raiding, this would provide an increase to the raids damage providing us with a greater role or desire.

Other - Pitch general ideas such as above (not individual abilities) but new roles that Drunken Monks may fufill. We can go into specific abilities we would like to see once we have a better idea of what to expect in terms of attention.

Also any feedback after you cast your vote is more than appreciated. I want to know what you guys want and why.
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Fujitsu
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 10:05:57 AM »

Id personally rather not be a raid tank, just being able to function in groups is enough for me, which mainly requires
1) defensive stance to have + hate (not middle)
2) jeering kick to be more useful


I like hate transfer, something like eq1 where we can feed x amount of hate from each attack to the tank would be nice.  Require us to be in MT group or something so its balanced.  Or a group only hate reduction buff that effects casters AND melee, requiring us to be in the group. 


I like high melee dps, just dont want to see dragon become elemental reliant unless they get all 6 elements that way they can do the job right.  If they only get 3/6 elements, it seems like they would only be good 50% of the time. They do seem more melee oriented then dragons, so it wouldnt be horrible. 

Appreciate the input
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Draxs
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 11:10:09 AM »

If Drunken takes a DPS aproach I do think we should be carefull to not let it become higher DPS than Dragon. Dragon as you know has no unique untilities whatsoever.

So if Drunken goes DPS we should make sure they don't overtake Dragon DPS or even be equal to it, as Fuji stated making Dragon Elemntal focused means their damage would be situational as to where a Drunken's would be steady, leaving players to just roll drunk if they want to DPS due to no stipulations on their damage.
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Draxs
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Fusoya
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 11:20:01 AM »

If we were to put Drunken as the normal melee DPS monk, Dragon would gain both elemental (more than just fire / ice) and the DoT DPS. I'd also like to see some aspects attached to the DoT's aside from just the damage. Such as reducing the monks hate or increasing the monks damage of a certain type while the debuff of that DoT is active.
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Draxs
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 11:22:30 AM »

Sounds good, I trust you. Just wanted to throw the aspect of becoming situational damage vs. equal non-situational damage out there.
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Draxs
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 12:50:03 PM »

I like the Tank aspect of the Drunken, but as far as raiding goes, it's not a viable option unless your tanking a caster.
I have Tanked small 2 group excursions into apw to pop minis for ore etc. it can be done with evasion over 65% w/out reed etc, just nowhere near the best option and a Parry sword is a must.

Granted aggro management can be done by a monk if he has to tank - All out Burst DPS and take the aggro in Offensive stance with mitigation penalty, or Midrange Haste stance for Hategain, Defensive Stance should be our Tanking Stance (Hategain added to the Slaps)

Monk mitigation just isn't up to par with plate and I don't believe they even considered Avoidance tanking an option for APW and beyond.

Just take a quick look at APW/Raid mob itemization, now look at the amount of plate gear with Mitigation on it as opposed to the amount of Medium armor with Avoidance / Evasion (think theres a Helm from Admiral, Boots From Zagius and Cloak from Essal). None of our Class armor has any evasion/avoidance, but it does have Damage stats.

The thing is the Drunken style doesn't really flesh out until you wind up with errant in the mix. I would hold with what suggestions you are going to put forward until the Damage fix / Combat changes are in and see where we stand.

Since Tanking is out I would have to go with DPS, Jin Surge is about the only group buff we need i think, (Just remember it works off who you have targeted defensive). Want more buff potential for a Drunk? Have him be able to pass out Stat Wine or Wine that applies a Short 1-5 min duration Damage buff or something, would fit the role of a drunk somewhat.

~wtb perma stun animation for drunks~


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Kivik
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 03:00:27 PM »

Drunken are the masters of Misdirection and lead the enemy to attack how they want them to attack,That said i would not mind seeing a few skill short duration raid buffs causing greater damage to a mob(please not as short as jin surge though where its wasted on petty attacks).They do this by forcing a mob to move in ways that opens areas where people can take better advantage of their hits on said mobs.
If this is not the path they end up going id like to see maybe a mix of hate xfer and better survivability in raid situations,even if it comes at a miner dps loss.When i made my drunken i made it with the thought that it would be a better surviving style monk over the other two.
Anyway just my 2 cents
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 04:41:02 PM »

I would tend to agree with the notion that making drunken monks functional as off-tanks in APW is not worth it.  I very much like the idea of them having significant agrro management abilities.  More important ever since the 30cooldown on force targeting.

I suspect if they had the skill set to do that plus one decent melee damage buff they could give to group/raid it would be just about spot on.
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Gang
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 07:33:35 PM »

I agree with Kivik. I built my drunken monk as a survivability monk. Good for pulling on raids. Early preforce taunt nerf it was nice to tanks for small groups using Jeering kick to keep agro. It was really fun and alot of people were happy to have someone to tank for them.
I see it this way, Dragon should be extreme offense. If this means different types of elemental attacks/debuffs increasing his or decreasing the mobs damage so be it. Their AE attacks are lame for the most part. Take them out and give some meat.
Harmonious are the buffer/debuffer. Thats their can of corn. I wouldnt want to impinge on their role. I think their effect should be greater to be more effective but the idea of the style is excellent
Drunken should have high survivability. We used to have the ability to taunt all the mobs around us for 5 hits. I saved alot of groups hitting my invul telling them to run hitting that skill and letting them get away then FD. We lost that ability way back when. I think our invul should be the highest of the 3 with a quicker cooldown.
Our dmg should be between dragon and harm. Tanking in APW ..shrug itd be a nice idea....the 50% dmg reduction thing could be increased to 75% etc. Lotsa good things could be added to make Drunken the high survivability monk.
Im partial to drunken (art imitating life ? ) Anyway just my 2 cents
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Hiko
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2008, 10:07:30 AM »

Drunken:
I like the thought of an Hate Transferring Monk.
Where the Martial artist deceive, lure and taunt his opponent into attacking the tank, as he deliver devastating confuseing hits from awkward angles..making the foe battle confused.

I see drunken as an easy going very tough adventure minded monk, who is able to perform the top most single hit damage of the three styles.

Dragon:
Dragon would be something like comming from an closed secret cociety made up from an fanatic brotherhood, surounded by mystery and fear. (picture them as Ninja's)
They will be the most deadly monk, and out damage harmo/drunken not from pure force like drunken, but from damage created out of DoT's 

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Meiyo
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 12:17:04 PM »

well those that are asking for higher dps I hope understand that drunken is meant to be a survivabliity style. we will encourage you respec to dragon after changes and melee fix is done.

like to see more hate transfer off of goading slap

magnificent drunken style should increase to 25 seconds or so.

jeering kick ... ... something liek this maybe... debuff on targeted mob that makes the mob have %mitigation lose for X time due to drunken monk confusing opponent while tank is tanking not neccasssrily survivabilitty but

I mean i rarely use it. when tanking in g4 killing trash or in RI or similar area's i have no use for it. so not sure if it's a outdated ability since the force taunt change or not

fool hardy swagger ...thinking of riposte here.. on normal hits (no strikethrough or such ) you avoid the attack and return to opponent for anywere from half to full damage that they would have done to you. and gain a free defensive reaction ability with it. the one that reduces ther edam by 50% for next 8 seconds.
 once again I dont need the extra agro from this ability either. since the change fo force taunt abilitys


thanks for your time and any remarks. no I cant follow the rules yo laid out either sorry, the style does not need a revamp, just a tweakor two imo

Meiyo

edit
forgot to add
defensive stance needs the hate from other stance
defensive stance needs improvemnt as the harmonioius is just to close and perhaps better  in hte end.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 05:31:02 PM by Meiyo » Logged

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Monk01
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 02:04:22 PM »

Give Drunken monks more ripose type abilitites (these can even be bust type things) . This fits the misdirection that the style is supossed be using. And, could give viable and limited tanking under the right situations.

You could give them a bit more ability as a hate transfer monk but I dont see this as being a big thing as the tanks have pretty good ability to hold damage as it is (this could work better if there were two classes of force taunt and theit timers didnt cancel, a self and forcing the mob onto another class- Make a Goading slap like force target that only works on another target). 
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 10:08:40 PM »

You could give them a bit more ability as a hate transfer monk but I dont see this as being a big thing as the tanks have pretty good ability to hold damage as it is

In raids and the semi difficult group content being able to load up hate on a tank or remove it from others can be invaluable.  In group situations with multiple opponents it can be exceedingly difficult for a healer to not pull aggro.  In raids stuns/aggrowipes/etc etc. are commonplace.  The raids ability to preform often heavily depends on how fast a tank can build backup aggro repeatedly durring a given fight.
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Monk01
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2008, 09:44:24 AM »

If your tank isnt building up aggo quickly then its not the monks fault (there are many factors involved not just aggro dumping), raids are often chaotic but this is part of the fun. No class should be dependent on another class for a "class defining" ability. Aggro dumping is a utility not a class defining ability. In every raid I have been on since APW release Aggo is a difficulty factor that the Dev's seem to rely on. Making Aggro manipulation easier is not a great thing for the game as a whole. Making this aspect of the game easier will serve to dumb down the upper end content quicker.

I stand by my statement of More Ripose type Abilities for Drunken Monks , forget any hate transfer, your idea of removing hate is a nice twist on the hate thing maybe make it more proactive and not a rescue ability. 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 11:01:59 AM by Monk01 » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2008, 11:43:48 AM »

/new vote option  make drunken monk ultimate puller

Goals:
make him safest and FASTEST chain puller for raids/groups
make him able to split even raid mobs alone
make tanks love if drunken pull for them

Ideas:
safest ..fd,immunities(stun,dmg,etc),hp regen
fastest ... aoe lul/stun, ranged shurikens abilities like stun,slow

Stances:
off - +agro transfer to %td
def - ultimate pulling stance ...+speed +50%mit -80%dmg +immunity(stun,slow) +fast hp off combat regen in FD

Crazy funny idea about raid mob spliting:
Our monkey pet(10 sec auto immunity,no dmg just grab agro) will engage mobs,  so we have some time to split them.

Now if mobs can be luled/mezzed there is no need for slow split.
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