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December 02, 2008, 07:02:38 AM

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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  Im sorry I need proof Fusoya « previous next »
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Author Topic: Im sorry I need proof Fusoya  (Read 4827 times)
Naftung
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« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2008, 09:31:08 AM »

I have seen Fusoya solo knights in library wing.  Once we even had a little race where he took one and the rest of the raid killed the other one.  We barely beat him.

edit:
Should have noted my main is Rokenn (lvl 50 bard) in BoW.  My Harm monk is currently lvl 49.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 09:37:39 AM by Naftung » Logged
Fujitsu
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« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2008, 09:32:57 AM »

2) it would seem to me that how it is sposed to work with quickblade would be:
=(900+100+500)+(900+100+500)
 since, if you hit the shank button twice you would get:
[button hit 1]
=900+100+500
[button hit 2]
=900+100+500

*NOT* as talisker is suggesting =(900+100+900+100)+500

can you explain why he is going with the later explanation?


I asked the same thing, and their answer was a un appeasing "because thats how we want it to be now"  Basiclly your 100% right on how it should be (its actually pretty close to how it is atm), it just comes down to difference of oppinion.  Developers feel melee are too over powered so they find ways to nerf existing systems. 

The issue comes down to flat damage being added to melee damage.  For skills like boundless fist, its Melee + bonus damage, so if boundless fist hits twice, you get 2x melee + bonus.... and the melee CONTAINS the + damage.  For weapon dmg attacks (shank) its just adding the +flat to the end of the attack.  It should work the same for MELEE and WPN DMG based attacks. 
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Hakuan
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« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2008, 09:37:11 AM »

couple more quick questions:

6) i notice that talisker uses boundless fist to explain how an ability works, then uses thundering fist for the "unbalanced" example. can we see the "effects" list for thundering?

7) the line " used 500 flat dmg in my example.  This is a very conservative number compared to what players can get in a raid." bothers me. what are the kinds of numbers seen in raids when its all added up? what specifically is fusoya's flat damage when hes reproducably pulling this off. this number shouldnt be part of the "classified" info since the only people who can hit like this aready have the gear to pull it off and im not asking for buffs or timing/sequencing. im just asking for an actual number, not some vague "well its high."

Cool are rogues seeing the same sort of "super-hits" that fusoya is (i.e. 200k)? are their attacks primarily weapon or melee damage attacks?

im not tryin to be argumentative i just do not think that this has been well explored or thought out. i could easily be wrong, however we have been given a very scanty explanation for what is happening, an explanation that several seem to have shot holes in. without information the skepticism that this is nothing but a nerf disguised as a bug fix will persist. not to mention that i personally do not think that the dev team nor blades of wrath has totally figured out the problem, and tryin to "fix" a problem based on an incomplete picture of that problem WILL create issues down the line.

im not saying it is easy. god knows that sigil was ineffective at management, and the game is so huge that sorting thru all of the coding to find out what is happening has got to be a nightmare. however, consider the very first question i asked. if the flat damage is being added twice to each attack because of dual wield, then nerfing the attacks in general cripples two-handed weapon use (which may or may not be effected by the bug.) it also drops that massive 200k attack down significantly simply by changing where a parenthesis lay in an equation. looking at small, simple changes is always preferable than saying well we are going to add yet another factor into an already complex problem and hope it works.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 10:02:47 AM by Hakuan » Logged
Fusoya
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« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2008, 10:00:32 AM »

1- Dual weilding and 2 handers have the same effect in this game. It's not like everquest where abilities just use your main hand weapon, it combines the two into one, which is the same as a 2 handed weapon. The only thing that changes is the off-hand receives a lesser damage bonus (33%) so that when combined with the main hand (66%) its not completely overpowered compared to two handers.

2- Shank
**Talisker may have listed this wrong and the source of the confusion, this is what the ability reads**
A finishing attack that viciously stabs your opponent twice in the back, inflicting massive damage. Must be executed form behind the opponent and while wielding a piercing weapon.

The ability stabs twice (not clicking the ability twice) without Quickblade. Quickblade turns 2 into 4, so the bonus damage is applied 4 times.

3- The picture screen shotted on Kotasoth is an epic crit, but pictures such as my Fengrot one earlier in this post is a normal critical hit. The Kotasoth one was simply the first one since I started working on the post that I screen shotted.

4- It's added before the critical hit is factored in. Critical hit will always amount to 1/3 of the total damage of an attack. As the formula is 150% damage. Epic is 400% and Legendary is on a dice roll of how many times it can be multiplied.

5- That's an example of the bug. Errant Strikes is factored in first, then FoC is working off of the modified damage gained by Errant Strikes generating in average a fairly larger number.

6- Boundless fist only uses 1 'effect' because it's 1 swing in 1 attack. Thundering Fist uses 3 'effects' because it is 3 swings that total to 1 attack.

7- I have no clue how high it can get in the perfect scenarios honestly. But, if you saw the screenshot of my attack rating it was over 6250 without max Str and missing a few other buffs.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 10:02:21 AM by Fusoya » Logged
Hakuan
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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2008, 10:11:10 AM »

1- Dual weilding and 2 handers have the same effect in this game. It's not like everquest where abilities just use your main hand weapon, it combines the two into one, which is the same as a 2 handed weapon. The only thing that changes is the off-hand receives a lesser damage bonus (33%) so that when combined with the main hand (66%) its not completely overpowered compared to two handers.

2- Shank
**Talisker may have listed this wrong and the source of the confusion, this is what the ability reads**
A finishing attack that viciously stabs your opponent twice in the back, inflicting massive damage. Must be executed form behind the opponent and while wielding a piercing weapon.

The ability stabs twice (not clicking the ability twice) without Quickblade. Quickblade turns 2 into 4, so the bonus damage is applied 4 times.
3- The picture screen shotted on Kotasoth is an epic crit, but pictures such as my Fengrot one earlier in this post is a normal critical hit. The Kotasoth one was simply the first one since I started working on the post that I screen shotted.

4- It's added before the critical hit is factored in. Critical hit will always amount to 1/3 of the total damage of an attack. As the formula is 150% damage. Epic is 400% and Legendary is on a dice roll of how many times it can be multiplied.

5- That's an example of the bug. Errant Strikes is factored in first, then FoC is working off of the modified damage gained by Errant Strikes generating in average a fairly larger number.

6- Boundless fist only uses 1 'effect' because it's 1 swing in 1 attack. Thundering Fist uses 3 'effects' because it is 3 swings that total to 1 attack.

7- I have no clue how high it can get in the perfect scenarios honestly. But, if you saw the screenshot of my attack rating it was over 6250 without max Str and missing a few other buffs.

i just highlighted the point im refering too here. Quickblade causes the ability to work twice. which would be the same as hitting the button twice. so with quickblade it should be the damage you get from the ability, (900+100+500)x2= 3000, NOT as talisker is saying (900+100)x2+500 = 2500.

the 4x is screwy i agree, but if we go by taliskers example this isnt a bug fix, its a bug fix +extra nerf which isnt necessary (at this point.) fix the bug, re-evaluate it before gu6 and go from there.

/editing because i wasnt clear on the point i was making.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 10:13:38 AM by Hakuan » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2008, 10:56:30 AM »

so your normal, non-QJ, non-FC, non-ES, non-epic crit thousand fists hits for about 8k? am i correct in pairing down your epic hits and special attacks?

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Fusoya
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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2008, 11:29:15 AM »

Regarding Quickblade, ES, FoC they allow you to swing extra giving up a fraction of your damage in exchange for speed. So you swing your weapon twice but do not apply all the other modifications until after both swings occur. You swing twice, not deal double damage.

Normally without cooldowns I'm between 15-25k with any of the Thousand Fist chain abilities.
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usmanicus
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2008, 11:45:54 AM »

I can see how its possible, but it must be hard to coordinate all the required buffs to come together just at the right time.
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Hakuan
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« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2008, 11:51:36 AM »

I can see how its possible, but it must be hard to coordinate all the required buffs to come together just at the right time.

not as hard as you think. in no apw gear and simply macroing QJ and FC in i can hit for 21k or so. given Errant (im harmo) that would turn to about 42k. add an epic crit in and your at 160k. thats not counting jin surge, nor is it counting paladin aura, or secret of transcendece which are both % modifiers. so 15% and im at 184k in pre-apw gear.

my problem at this point is fusoya's last comment. that is not how the tooltips read, its not how the abilities work. the way you are starting to twist words to fit what sony wants you to say you should be working for the white house or the clintons.
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Hakuan
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« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2008, 11:56:38 AM »

oh, and some hard numbers for those "average" monks like me, ill try to format it as a table here, based on my stats and raid buffed, w/o jin surge:

              CURRENT              NEW
TF                5289                  3920
FoC             10578                7158
ES               21156                13630
QJ               42312                26577

now, according to taliskar, unless you are hitting those 200k hits you wont notice a difference. i beg to differ. oh and adding in the bonus per "extra" ability? you get 3920, 7840, 15680 and 31360 respectively. that is with adding in the flat damage once per TF attack instead of just once.
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Draxs
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« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2008, 12:56:08 PM »

oh, and some hard numbers for those "average" monks like me, ill try to format it as a table here, based on my stats and raid buffed, w/o jin surge:

              CURRENT              NEW
TF                5289                  3920
FoC             10578                7158
ES               21156                13630
QJ               42312                26577

now, according to taliskar, unless you are hitting those 200k hits you wont notice a difference. i beg to differ. oh and adding in the bonus per "extra" ability? you get 3920, 7840, 15680 and 31360 respectively. that is with adding in the flat damage once per TF attack instead of just once.

Twisting words would be saying "unless you are hitting those 200k hits you wont notice a difference", when in actuallity he said you would not notice as large of a difference, which is 100% true.

You say Fuyosa should work for the whitehouse or the clintons, I think you should work for the Enquierer, with all your conspiracy theories and whatnot. Fuyosa, myself and many others have repeatedly explained why this fix needs to happen. Take a step back and think about the good of the game and stop worrying about your particular class or whatevet grudge it appears you are holding onto.

For the Dev's to ever accurately and effectively be able to push out quality Raid content they must have firm control over DPS. That's not going to happen when some classes are accounting for 2-4 melee DPS classes. Raids will become either unbeatable by those who can't reproduce the damage being refferenced or trivialized by those who can. Stop focusing on the numbers and focus on the goal.

I'm not sure why you can't see the obviousness of how true the above statement is and I'm personally done trying to explain the common sense behind it.
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Draxs
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2008, 01:29:11 PM »

First off you are wrong in how Errant strike/fist of celerity works.

It adds an extra swing, not doubles your current damage.  JOLT doubles your current damage.

TF - 8k
FoC- 8k +8k
ES+Foc - 8k+8k+8k
ES+Foc+jolt - 16k+16k+16k

So under the current system it would be more accurate to say.

              CURRENT              NEW
TF                5289                  3920
FoC             10578                7158
ES               15156                13630
QJ               30312                26577



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Fusoya
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2008, 01:33:55 PM »


my problem at this point is fusoya's last comment. that is not how the tooltips read, its not how the abilities work.
[/quote]

All that im saying by that is that the original coders took shortcuts to reach what appeared to be the same goal. The error in this was revealed with the release of raid content.
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Thorius
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2008, 01:47:50 PM »

again i agree the tooltips read that it applies to ever attack which is what its doing and SOE is saying its a bug that needs to be fixed. To me sounds like they just want to change it and make it only apply at the end of the multiple attack.
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gang
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2008, 02:19:13 PM »

Look, instead of calling it a bug fix lets call it what Draxs and fusoya are alluding to. Its a way for the Devs to get control of DPS. There is no bug. They want lower melee DPS to achieve their ultimate pecking order goal. ie Sorc top of the food chain all others come after. So lets call it what it is. A melee math revamp (resulting in drastic reduction thru all levels of melee) that will suit what SOE wants. For some reason Fusoya has bought into this. Shrug, i rememebr when you did a search for a rogue or a monk back in Dec 06 or Feb 07 you might see 10. This will have the same effect. Especially since most people dont read these boards.Nor do they frequent the OVF. All they will see is a drastic reduction in their chars DPS and leave. This game is on precarious ground as it is. To make a monumental change like this with out being absolutely sure you have "whats wrong" is a big mistake.
Like I said Im a drunken monk. I have all the same skills you do Fusoya. I get all the buffs. My gear may be less. Im pretty dang good at my class. Try as I may I cant hit like you do ...nor can I solo any mobs in APW.
Id sure like to see you do it. Racing an entire raid and you almost killing faster than them (shakes head) .
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