Vanguard Monks - Trouble Incoming

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October 11, 2008, 07:09:48 PM

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Vanguard Monks | Monk Discussion | Monk General | Trouble Incoming

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Topic: Trouble Incoming (Read 2410 times)

BlackBelt

Recruit

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 21

R.I.P

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2008, 01:37:11 AM »

The perfect news to switch on Age of conan knuppel2

Sadly no more FD loving there Tongue

Anyway, DPS isn't an issue here nor our main job on raids so /ignore any nerfs!

What i think they will do is the following :

Rogues 2.5k
Dragoon 2.3k
Drunken 2.1k
Rangers 2.0k
Harmo 1.8k

I take not credibility on that info 2funny


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(50) Drunken Master - BlackBelt RockLee - Halgar

http://www.truveo.com/Rock-Lee-Drunk-Suiken-Fist-Beer-Song/id/2102642822

Ronmaru

Grandmaster

Karma: +1/-4
Posts: 112

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2008, 06:30:22 AM »

Quote from: BlackBelt on April 28, 2008, 01:37:11 AM

The perfect news to switch on Age of conan knuppel2

Sadly no more FD loving there Tongue

Just curious, but what is your reasoning to put harmonious monks below rangers?

I would suspect its more likely to have drunk and harmonious be very close to each other when all is said and done with dragon a bit higher and rogue a bit higher than than. Ranger should be just barely below drunk/harmo. People can claim rangers have utility and flexability to flip between ranged and melee...and that's true. But its typically not taken into account when picking them for a group/raid so much as "we need more dps".


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Fujitsu

Sensei

Karma: +22/-20
Posts: 847

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2008, 07:30:42 AM »

The real question is how can you honestly say dps isnt our main role and to just ignore nerfs ;-p

I mean maybe you dont, but in my raids im in the top 2-3 dps classes every time. Pulling is so easy that id hardly call it a role. I can literally teach a necro and disc to do my job even with their inferior feign deaths.

O and i will be very surprised if drunken ends up below dragon dps, that currently would require a lot of skill changes.


« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 08:34:32 AM by Fujitsu »	Logged

Zerathule

Master

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 59

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2008, 08:10:21 AM »

My guild already has 3 to 4 bards each raid, and could have 6 actually.
The fact that the GL is a bard doesnt help, but if we're nerfed, why would a 2nd monk be taken in a raid if you have more bards available ?
Even a rogue in fact.


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Thorius

Recruit

Karma: +0/-2
Posts: 13

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2008, 09:35:13 AM »

well i guess SOE is just gonna slap the monks in the face again. Pulling can be done by more classes then just a monk so cant really say thats the monks role. A ranger has very good dps the prob is the poor agro reducer. Fix their agro reducer and you fix there dps IMO.


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Draxs

Grandmaster

Karma: +9/-4
Posts: 132

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2008, 09:40:45 AM »

I just don't understand where the complains and the doom and gloom is coming from.

We are projected to be in the top 3 (2nd I think) in melee DPS. We are imvaluable as pullers. Other classes can do it but nowhere near as efficently as we can.

I can't see why anyone has a problem with the propused corrections, and yes I say corrections cause thats what they are. Our dps is not intended to be what it is ATM and it's simply being corrected.

I for one and glad that we are going to still be in the top ranks when it comes to melee DPS. I think it could have been much worse and I'm happy to see that it isn't.


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Draxs
50 Dragon Monk
Brotherhood of the Spider
Xeth

Fujitsu

Sensei

Karma: +22/-20
Posts: 847

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2008, 10:07:01 AM »

To each his own draxs, ill reserve my final judgement to see what these "corrections" are.

You are allowed your oppinion and I mine. Personally i see cookie cutter classes as a nerf. What i personally see happening is this.

Monks in raid for pulls, you get to a boss.
If its a high dps mob -Swap in extra sorcs/rogues/bards.
If its got a stance to push - swap in rangers (their stance push is 3x as effective)
If the mob is immune or highly magic resistant-- swap out casters Then you can add monks

I hardly call cutting a classes dps in over half a "correction". To me thats a bit harsher.

Again ill make my final judgment once everything is announced. But personally its a huge change in the game to go from 40k total raid wide dps on kotasoth to probably 15-20k total dps. If thats entirely from fixing bugs, ill be very surprised. I highly doubt they can cut rogue/monk dps in half by bug fixing alone, which is why people are calling nerf.


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Ronmaru

Grandmaster

Karma: +1/-4
Posts: 112

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2008, 10:27:30 AM »

Rather than everyone speculating beyond what was noted officially it would probably be best to wait for Fusoya to deliver his post detailing what will change and why.

I'm personally leaning towards Draxs's opinion on this. When all is said and done monks and rogues will still be quite viable as dps choices and monk will still be tops for pulling. I can't see why this would be so problematic. Its not like sorcerers bring a ton of utilty or rangers so justifying that monks and rogues should be leages ahead of them in damage is just silly. I would be realistically looking for a small bump to monk utility to round out the package over wanting to be excessively ahead of others in dps regardless. But that's my personal preferences.

As for bards, they have great and flexible buffing through their songs which means they have to be in play for it to take effect unlike the 1hr buffs of others. I know thier ability haste will be set to no longer stack with psi ability haste. Perhaps they need to be reduced further etc. but considering how they work its a very fine line to walk between bards being overpowered and or suddenly underpowered, aka if their song components are made too weak in a given aspect then it will suddenly become an all or nothing deal instead of adding diversity to the class...which would in a sense destroy a lot of the fun of playing a bard to begin with. Its not a quick easy thing to balance out while still maintianing the functional diversity of the class especially if you take how it functions in groups and solo into account..


« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 10:40:40 AM by Ronmaru »	Logged

Fujitsu

Sensei

Karma: +22/-20
Posts: 847

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2008, 10:49:03 AM »

Its not really that excessive of speculation.

Avair himself stated on the official forums that sorcs would be the new overall top dps. With the gu5 (now to be gu6) changes to them, a few sorcs have posted that their overall dps is about 20% lower then currently. So they will go from 4k average to about 3.2k.

So theres my first speculation, that 20% nerf of average sorc dps translates into a 3.2k max dps class. From there i took the fact that rogue/monk would be UNDER sorc and assumed that to go from 5-6k average to less then 3k, it would require our dps to be cut in half.

If thats entirely from "bug" fixes and "corrections" I am fine. I just find it hard to believe that half my dps is from bugs in the way damage is being added. It would be a lot more balanced if every dps was in the magic 3k range, dont get me wrong. Im all about fixing bugs and balancing classes so you dont end up with raids with 6 rogues, as long as its done fairly.

Rangers - their dps is probably already around the magic 3k mark now with the change to refresh haste stacking.

Monk- depending on how aum kor stacks ( i found that aum kor still stacks with drunken monk self refresh haste) with psi or bard buffs, its anywhere from a 20% to 40% reduction in dps. Simply put, 1 minute attacks are currently 20s refresh. With aum+psi, it will be 36s and if aum kor doest stack (making the aum completely useless again) then its about 45s. That alone takes our dps from ~5.5k down to 3.3k to 4.4k

Bard are about 3-4k now, and their dps should stay about that with the changes. 3.4k max now

Rogue - they should go from about 6k dps to about 4.5k. Their issue is shank/shiv is their "bugged" finisher which is like our flying kick but does real big dmg. So that fix might hit them hard. (again well see)

Druids/sorcs will be around 3k at gu6 so thats fine. necros are already there.


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Draxs

Grandmaster

Karma: +9/-4
Posts: 132

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2008, 11:34:33 AM »

No matter what numbers are gathered or speculated, in the end, if they get it hashed out the way they seem to indicate thay want to it will be fine.

Sorc should be top DPS imo, they have very little survivability.

All the nerfs, boosts and changes are all relative and mean nothing if in the end it is corrected game-wide. meaning Mob HPs versus that mobs appropriate setup wether it be a raid/group or solo mob.

Even if I loose 5k DPS it will still be relative to others DPS and mob HP. I imagine it will take quite some time and alot of testing/retuning to get it right, but in the end I think it is best for the game.


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Draxs
50 Dragon Monk
Brotherhood of the Spider
Xeth

Fusoya

Desciple

Karma: +37/-26
Posts: 37

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2008, 11:42:31 AM »

The bug fix isn't class balancing, think people may be getting that confused. After the bug fix, class balancing will take place weeks or even months down the road. Rogue and Monk DPS is going to remain too high until that takes place. Don't need to hit the panic button quite yet. =P


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Ronmaru

Grandmaster

Karma: +1/-4
Posts: 112

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2008, 11:45:15 AM »

Quote from: Fujitsu on April 28, 2008, 10:49:03 AM

Its not really that excessive of speculation.

Avair himself stated on the official forums that sorcs would be the new overall top dps.

In regards to burst/sustained, solo/group/raid, overall/overallcaster? Was that mentioned?

With the gu5 (now to be gu6) changes to them, a few sorcs have posted that their overall dps is about 20% lower then currently. So they will go from 4k average to about 3.2k.

Also until GU5 happens all testing for dps is happening on test, so those values are good for further adjusting things at the moment but don't = the collection of data in game currently. Not saying 3.2k won't in fact be the value that pans out after GU5 is launched but it certainly isn't set in stone atm either and I suspect given more time to work with and try new things under the adjustment it may end up averaging out a bit higher.

So theres my first speculation, that 20% nerf of average sorc dps translates into a 3.2k max dps class. From there i took the fact that rogue/monk would be UNDER sorc and assumed that to go from 5-6k average to less then 3k, it would require our dps to be cut in half.

Im all about fixing bugs and balancing classes so you dont end up with raids with 6 rogues, as long as its done fairly.

If you define fairly as to be only things that are considered "bug fixes" that's not really a position that allows for tweaking of any classes unless the devs call everything they want to adjust bugged...which I suppose they could certainly do but its not (I feel) a very realistic expectation and at the end of the day no matter how it is labled they are making an adjustment to try to bring something more in balance.

Rangers - their dps is probably already around the magic 3k mark now with the change to refresh haste stacking.

Monk- depending on how aum kor stacks ( i found that aum kor still stacks with drunken monk self refresh haste) with psi or bard buffs, its anywhere from a 20% to 40% reduction in dps. Simply put, 1 minute attacks are currently 20s refresh. With aum+psi, it will be 36s and if aum kor doest stack (making the aum completely useless again) then its about 45s. That alone takes our dps from ~5.5k down to 3.3k to 4.4k

Combine that with changes to how multihits will work for stacking +damage effects and it prettymuch nails things in to around that 3K mark

Bard are about 3-4k now, and their dps should stay about that with the changes. 3.4k max now

Under the new setup there is no way that will stay. Besides that would break the idea that sorc are top DPS. Bards outdamaging rangers/monks/rogues would last about as long as it would take to code in a nerf after people play around with the new setup.

Rogue - they should go from about 6k dps to about 4.5k. Their issue is shank/shiv is their "bugged" finisher which is like our flying kick but does real big dmg. So that fix might hit them hard. (again well see)

Well if your thoughts on sorceres being the benchmark for max sustained raid dps is accurate then rogues would have to get cut in half as well.

Druids/sorcs will be around 3k at gu6 so thats fine. necros are already there.

So if I understand right, you feel that it will be sorc at ~3.2k
and rogue will be ~3.19?
monk~3.1?
Ranger and everyone else 3kish?

It will be interesting to see Fusoya's explaination of things.
None of this current takes into account how melee haste will change either.

A lot of stuff around the corner, I doubt strongly it is all going to work out exactly how anyone anticipates and will probably take a while to get it all right.


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Draxs

Grandmaster

Karma: +9/-4
Posts: 132

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2008, 11:51:12 AM »

Quote from: Fusoya on April 28, 2008, 11:42:31 AM

I don't believe you, the sky IS falling and we ARE doom!!


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Draxs
50 Dragon Monk
Brotherhood of the Spider
Xeth

Fujitsu

Sensei

Karma: +22/-20
Posts: 847

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2008, 12:01:29 PM »

Quote from: Ronmaru on April 28, 2008, 11:45:15 AM

In regards to burst/sustained, solo/group/raid, overall/overallcaster? Was that mentioned?
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=31320

""There will be a combat balancing pass done during GU6. During this pass we are addressing the DPS discrepancy between caster and melee classes, adjusting NPC HPs, class DPS, etc. We will be using current caster DPS as our top end for balancing, NOT current melee DPS. We are going to move the Sorcerer to the top of the caster DPS then, when GU6 balancing pass is complete, they will be on top of the overall DPS list."

To me that says on aveage, they will be the top caster AND top overall dps.

If you define fairly as to be only things that are considered "bug fixes" that's not really a position that allows for tweaking of any classes unless the devs call everything they want to adjust bugged...which I suppose they could certainly do but its not (I feel) a very realistic expectation and at the end of the day no matter how it is labled they are making an adjustment to try to bring something more in balance. --- fairly is just like it sounds, all classes get the same treatment either positive or negative, no favorites.

Combine that with changes to how multihits will work for stacking +damage effects and it prettymuch nails things in to around that 3K mark Again this has yet to be seen, it all depends on how they change the code. Personally with 4x multi hits for my primary dmg, having them go from 7k a hit to 3k a hit , then moving them from 20s to 45 seconds its a bit more of a nerf that puts me well below 3k dps.

Under the new setup there is no way that will stay. Besides that would break the idea that sorc are top DPS. Bards outdamaging rangers/monks/rogues would last about as long as it would take to code in a nerf after people play around with the new setup.

Sorry but i cant resist.....thats what another 3 months? Lets be honest changes arent fast in this game and it takes entirely to long to get stuff out.

Well if your thoughts on sorceres being the benchmark for max sustained raid dps is accurate then rogues would have to get cut in half as well.

Its not my "thoughts" its what avair said for raid dps.

So if I understand right, you feel that it will be sorc at ~3.2k
and rogue will be ~3.19?
monk~3.1?
Ranger and everyone else 3kish?

Nope, thats what avair/fusoya have stated as far as placement goes, the numbers are just my generalization based on my guilds current parsing

It will be interesting to see Fusoya's explaination of things.
None of this current takes into account how melee haste will change either.

Melee haste isnt even planed until gu6 or later at the earliest, ideally it will be gu6 so melee are balanced WITH haste in mind and we wont need another nerf 4 weeks later

[/quote]


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Thorius

Recruit

Karma: +0/-2
Posts: 13

Re: Trouble Incoming

« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2008, 01:56:54 PM »

well time to break out the DK again.


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