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September 05, 2008, 08:55:30 PM

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Author Topic: Nerf Monks?  (Read 1824 times)
gang
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« on: April 13, 2008, 11:29:01 AM »

The offical forums are now rife with people calling for teh nerf of monks and rogues dps. Primarily by DPS caster types. Even class leads are jumping on the bandwagon. Someone even quoted a Dev that stated melle DPS was out of control. What the heck is going on? Who is standing up for us? This is a pretty one dimensional class. DAMAGE.
Pulling is done by alot of classes now and done better by some. FD is shared with a 2 other classes. Stance pushing? 2 other classes that do it better. I mean 48 endurance a push isnt very efficient. So what else can we do?
We need someone to put a halt to all these nerf cries or we are gonna get hosed. What do you guys think?
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Fujitsu
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2008, 04:22:05 PM »

Well until we get a class lead to represent us theres very little we can do but post on the offical forums that we want representation before they nerf us.

From what i can tell its people who dont parse accurately claiming we have bugged skills.   
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Simonson
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2008, 04:58:51 PM »

I have these arguments with my guild casters all day long.
I seem to have convinced most of them that it would be unfair and unbalanced for sorcs to be more raid dps than monk/rogue.
Main reasons are sorcs are better for soloing, have in-combat ranged mezzes, group buffs (albeit meager), passive detaunt from being ranged, avoid 90% of AEs from being ranged.

If sorcs all of a sudden has more Raid dps than rogue....why would you possibly roll a rogue.....when sorcs is better for solo + group + raid etc. Fact is sorcs should be less dps than rogue otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me.
Could still make a monk for pulling/CR purposes....but i'd bet 99.9% of monks value their dps over any of that.

As for bugged skills, noone ever said we were uber until raiding started, which basically means we are pretty unremarkable solo/group. Nerfing our attacks makes us a total waste of space in those circumstances, when we bring absolutely nothing to the table except dps.

And everyone please make some noise on fujitsu's thread: http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=30262
we need a class lead pronto
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Khana Kopnisien
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 07:10:28 AM »

This is exactly why I don't like parsers all that much. People will figure the people being parsed are representational, while they might very well just suck / excel at their class, have better gear, etc.

Even IF we do more damage than them, the balance has been tipped in their favour for so long it's not even funny anymore. If the disparity is caused by bugs, that should be fixed. In my mind, it's likely caused by two things: over the top buffing and poor aggro management for casters. Considering that our average hits are somewhere between 1.5 and 3k and theirs are upwards of 4k and given that the damage output of their crits is higher than ours, those can be the only reasons.
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 08:19:54 AM »

it's likely caused by two things: over the top buffing and poor aggro management for casters.

In a nutshell yeah.
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Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2008, 08:58:40 AM »


As for bugged skills, noone ever said we were uber until raiding started, which basically means we are pretty unremarkable solo/group. Nerfing our attacks makes us a total waste of space in those circumstances

That about sums up my opinion too.  No one even noticed our dps till raids, and more specifically until monks started getting celerity 5 piece armor procs.  This leads me to beleive a few things.  One that the ultimate solution would be to make it so celerity and errant strike 1) dont stack and 2) can not be affected by refresh haste. 

Last night we had no bear shm/psi/bard for refresh haste... Know what i noticed.  The overal dps of the raid is lower, but the positions are the same...only now sorcs are a few steps higher on the totem poll.

IE its still rog > monk >bard >rng >war/dk  for melee, but instead of sorcs being near the bottom they are more near the mdidle
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Zerathule
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2008, 09:39:06 AM »

Where do ranged rangers stands compared to monks in melee ?
Personnaly i'm crap geared, especially for DPS, (i tried to get my hands on survival gear for pulling and aoes first : dead = 0 DPS) but for exemple on Nerksawl i was number 1 dps as a drunken monk, but we had no rogues.
Rangers seemed to shine in DPS while i was leveling, but since i raid, they seem to suck hard.
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 11:21:30 AM »

Rangers simply lack the kind of deaggro tools to do things right.  They either get the flat 20% reduced aggro doing ranged attacks or they use their relatively weak melee deaggro ability doing melee attacks.  Either way our rangers have to limit their damage or they pull aggro and die.  Same with our sorcerers.
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Fujitsu
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2008, 12:11:23 PM »

I find its not agro that limits their dps... its their ability to grow with raid buffs.  They just dont benifit as much as rogues/monks from raid buffs,... they cap their dps much easier in groups.  It might just be the nature of their attacks Im not sure as i dont play a ranger, but i know in solo dps they can rock a monks, in groups they are usualy equal if not better... and in raids they are significantly lower.

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Jakik
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 01:04:12 PM »

I have never really been "rocked" by a ranger or sorc in a solo or group situation. You have to remeber that in a group situation having to worry about aggro is alot less of a concern than it is in a raid situation. The length of fights is significantly less and there is also a smaller chance of dying due to catching aggro. Typically a ranger or even a sorc that pulls aggro on a group mob will live long enough for the tank to get the aggro back or for the mob to die... In a raid situation the ranger or sorc will probably die or even worse get everyone else killed due to some type of frontal ability the mob may have... This alone drastically reduces any classes dps. Monks on the other hand dont have to worry about this as much due to having a 100% aggro whipe.

Something else id like to point out is monks, especially drunken and dragon styles, have very little to no utlity... If you look at any class in the game they all get atleast 1 or 2 significant debuffs or buffs, they get a stance or enchantment push, they get a heal or a counter and the list goes on. Dragon and Drunken monks pretty much only get a endurance hungry stance push and a 2400 hate feed ( which I still dont think works )... Drunken also get a 14% ae hate increase to our defensive target ( which I also dont think works )... Other than that we dont get any buffs or heals for anyone but our selves... no counter or debuffs. Harmonious monks are the exception, they get alot of debuffs but as a result their dps is alot lower than that of a dragon or drunkens dps.

The problem I see is alot of poeple including class leads rather think of ways to nerf other classes than think of ways to fix or improve the class they were appointed to.  Class leads need to focus on their class and stop trying to mess with other peoples classes. They were appointed class lead of ONE class because they play and are very knowledgeable of that ONE class... When they start chiming in about classes they dont play or play very little that is when real problem arise such as this whole "Nerf the monks" epidemic.

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Jakik
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 01:34:34 PM »

I was tempted to post a fight were the top 2 dps were sorc and bard (we had 1 bard, in the tank group, .... no bear shm and no psi buffs)

.... Then be like zomg nerf bard/sorc they crack 3.5k dps when we have no refresh haste/endurance regen buffs!

I agree its frustrating that other class leads are trying to "fix us" and we have absolutely no say.
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Kivik
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 04:04:42 PM »

Possible early congrats Fujitsu and good luck..hearing a Little something.
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Fujitsu
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 05:48:41 PM »

Who told you...that i got to play a sorc at tonights raids to show them how to crack 5k dps!  Seroiuosly id like to hear something ;-p

(although i am tempted to play an afk ranger and see their dps)
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Kivik
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2008, 09:03:33 PM »

I gots people smiley6600
seriously though if it is indeed true you better not let us down knuppel2
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2008, 11:22:47 PM »

I gots people smiley6600
seriously though if it is indeed true you better not let us down knuppel2

A CL can only do so much.  If the devs have rocks in their heads (as they many times seem to) the CL can only relay to you what they said and the responces they were given.  Additionally any changes suggested that require coding etc. can take a loooong time to get processed along the que of many many other things.

I wanted to scream at the devs when they completely jacked up shaman patron balance by removing the regen capabilities from just one patron (wolf) completely.  And then watched them utterly fail to try to rebalance around it.  The wolf shaman ended up being royally gimped in solo and group content compared to the other patrons and then suddenly became godlike in terms of dps for a healer on raids where they actually had endurance regen from other classes buffs.

If they hadn't made the bonehead move of stipping the wolf shammy regen in the first place it never would have become such an increadibly unbalanced situation.  But no one could convince the devs of their own stupidity. uglystupid2  Even though the problem was dead obvious to most people playing a rakurr shammy....go figure.

Sometimes the devs really are just clueless and stubborn.  /shrug
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