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November 20, 2008, 06:41:09 AM

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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk General  |  stat question « previous next »
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easyplay
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« on: April 01, 2008, 01:02:17 PM »

ok so you guys say "int" is worth more than "dex" per points but don't dex give you a better chance to crit? and another question is do they plan on "int" for our secrets? guess im worried because old school i thought was str/dex and i did crit a lot and afraid it won't be as good after changing my stats.

ps.. is the crit and damage affects on t5 gear worth getting?
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Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2008, 02:40:13 PM »

Point for point you benefit more from int then from dex for a few reasons.

The main reason is int adds a flat dmg to each hit via secrets (yes its intended, we whined about it forever, so what ended up happening was 2 things. First, was skils were scaled to average monk int at 50... meaning to get our skill to do the said 600 dmg a hit we needed 200 int not 700.  Secondly, int has a larger effect on our spell dmg rating then it does on other classes.  So going from 200 int to 400 int at 50 increases our dmg from 600 a hit to 900 a hit, while that would only take a caster to about 700. 

Secondly the bonus from dex is very small in the grand scheme of things.  900 dex at 50 is what you need to cap the crits from dex.  Heres the catch, overall crit rate is caped at 40-50% so if your dual wielding (7.5%)  have 450 dex (10% crit) and have a few pieces of lucent gear ( about 1-2% a piece) your already at 25-30% crit.   If your a harmonious your at 40%.   If your ful apw geared your at 40%. 

Crit and dmg are amazing on t5 gear IF your are just dpsing, just remember if your gonna pull in APW youll want to trade the crit gear out and get HP gear.
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2008, 03:53:07 PM »

Everything fuj said plus in a raid there is a pretty solid chance a ranger will be present, their buff gives another 5% crit.  If a rakurr (wolf) shaman is present they give yet another stacking 5% crit buff.

In short (as fuj already said) with a few pieces of the right gear, you'll be capped pretty much 24/7 on raids.

This of course is one of the reasons many of us kinda just shake our heads at the harmonious "offensive" stance.  Wink
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Simonson
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 06:15:58 AM »

I must admit i'm still not convinced by this 40% crit cap.

Are you sure that it isn't "40% cap from gear" and stance/buffs work separately/stack?
I just counted up all my gear/dex/stance and it came to a total of 82% crit unbuffed.
That means in tiger or crane stance i have the exact same crit chance and there is no point using the tiger stance.

However then i notice this: In tiger stance, crescent kick & ashen hand are essentially guaranteed auto-crits, not once ever have they failed to crit (except for misses), in crane stance they do fail albeit not very often but still they do.
Plz don't say i am talking SNARF or it is a placebo or something - try it yourself.

Also the stance is 30% crit which i assume means vs lvl 50?
So against the lvl 53s in APW it would scale down to what..something like 20-25%?

Not sure exactly of the numbers...but due to scaling wouldn't that mean you actually need closer to 50% crit to have the cap vs lvl 53?

Maybe i have got something wrong - Just some thoughts anyway  angel
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Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 06:27:17 AM »

Well i do know that 100% for sure casters are capped at 40% crit/dmg rating.
The exact numbers arent available for melee, but im 95% sure its between 40 and 50%. 

I know what you are talking about about crescent kick/ashen hand, they have hiden modifiers that increase their chances.  I beleive they do crit chance X2 to determine their personal crit rate.  So having 80% * 2. would mean 100% rate for those specific skills.

But at the end of the day its still just their personal crit rate that goes over the cap, every class has 1-2 attacks that go over the crit cap.  Its hard to parse because you have to look at the individual crit rate for each individual skill. 
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Simonson
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 07:15:19 AM »

Ok cool,
one other thing i was wondering about was secret of flame/ice crits.

Does harmonious tiger stance affect them too?
Seems like it would have a huge affect on them if so.
80% of gear is just "melee crit" so harmonious would be doing loads more damage from secrets than any other form right?

For instance a drunken monk unbuffed would be 5-10% spell crit, harmonious 35-40%

 Wink
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Fujitsu
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 07:43:10 AM »

In theroy it should, w/o tiger stance 40% *2 = 80% chance to crit on those 2 attacks. Vs 3 dot lvl 50 (aka you will notice it wont always crit like you said).  Vs a 6 dot lvl 53, your looking at ~65%

 then add the stance and you have 80% even though its caped 40%, 80*2 = 160%, vs a 6 dot raid mob, those 2 attacks are now ~ 145% (or less) crit rate (again, almost garunted finisher opener)

Secrets crits are based on wisdom, and im not sure at all how harmonious stance effects them.  However the added dmg by secrets criting  isnt enough to overtake the 22% (drunken) to 24% (dragon) bas dmg increase on all melee attacks.   

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Gatsuh
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2008, 09:21:39 AM »

Hmm, tried respec'ing atrributes last night at 3 different trainers and everytime i hit the retrain button (and the "are you sure" button as well) it does not give the points back, it leaves them there. is this a known bug? I relogged and was still unable to respec.
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Simonson
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2008, 09:56:33 AM »

@ Fujitsu - thanks for help  Smiley

@Gatsuh - Today's patch notes: GENERAL
- Adventuring and crafting assigner NPCs will now allow you to refund your attribute points
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2008, 10:07:22 AM »

Yeah prior to today's patch some trainers at different locations worked and others were broken.  Similar reports on other forums.  People had to hunt around and find trainers that weren't broken.

Good point Simon about level 53 scaling variations.  I'm not perfectly sure what the "cap vs. level 53" is for melee crits.  That would be a damn good question to see how much sense it makes (if any) to shoot past 40% crit for APW.  For example if you're at 40% naturall would the boost from buffs be enough?  (I'm guessing probably but its hard to say.)  Would be good to get a dev comment on that.  Maybe the rogues know?  (they tend to be a little parse obsessed)  Wink

I would imagine the easiest way to verify how fighting a level 53 adjusts things is to simply use AA while the rest of the group/raid wails away for a bit.  See how things line up etc.  And yeah fuj is spot on, every melee class I've played has at least 1or2 skills with inflated crit chance, some say so in the tool tip, others you note from use.
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Simonson
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2008, 10:38:13 AM »

I have some alts, one is 47, one is 49, i'll see if i can work out the formula, from comparing rating on them, to my lvl 50, and then extrapolting up to 53.
I just hope the formula is linear and not quadratic, it's a long time since i did maths Tongue

On the other hand it might be the same as people on tank forums have already worked out - while 65% mit is the cap vs own lvl, you need 79.5% to be capped for APW.

Assuming it works the same way: 79.5/65 = 1.22

So you would divide everything by 1.22, for instance Tiger stance (30%crit):

30 / 1.22 = 24.6% crit (vs lvl 53)

And so...the big question...
If you aim for 40% crit, you only end up with ~33% in APW

By my calculations you need 48.8% crit for APW.

Note: these are total speculations and guesses right now
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Gatsuh
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 10:51:53 AM »

Ahh yes, sorry. Recently returned to the game so catching up on everything is proving a difficult challenge. Bugs still abound, constant crashes the norm(Vista user w/ nvidia card ftl i guess). But the game does seem to have gotten better, secrets not on 2minute timers, our dps buff is 1hour on cast too(don't remember the jin cost being that extreme but still worth it for the 1h timer). The only thing that i think is really bugging me lately is the skill sets on the main page here are out of date. It doesn't look like the skill have been updated since release(and the forum stickies i've seen don't give good descriptions of each ability and any changes they may have undergone since release or what they do now for that matter either).
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 11:46:41 AM »


And so...the big question...
If you aim for 40% crit, you only end up with ~33% in APW

By my calculations you need 48.8% crit for APW.


Your thoughts echo my own.  Wink

Going off of this theory hitting the 40% crit cap will be "good enough" if you have a ranger and rakurr shaman present.  If only one is present you will be a little shy of hitting the crit vs. level 53 cap.

Its as good of a place to start as any for making assumptions regardless.

Gatsuh there are two pages with skill lists on them.  One is vastly more out of date than the other which is for the most part accurate.  Head under skills and abilities forum and look for the sticky.  Fuj has that one pretty well ironed out.
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