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Vanguard Monks  |  Monk Discussion  |  Monk Gear & Equipment  |  Crafted gear 40-50 « previous next »
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Author Topic: Crafted gear 40-50  (Read 1102 times)
Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2008, 07:28:04 AM »

With raid buffs you want to be 9-10k for pulling.  I didnt ever find the mitigation gear to be necisarry. 

The funny thing is now that i have a full suit of apw gear i lost about 1k hp (no more con) so now i sit at 9.6k max buffed instead of 10.6k.

Mitigation is really only worth it if your a dragon and have no self invuln.  For harmony and drunken its worthless, 5% extra mit dont do SNARF when mobs hit for 5-10k
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Ronmaru
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2008, 08:38:07 AM »

Actually it depends on your hp pool.

If your hps are at about 7.5k or higher mitigation starts to do more for you than hps do per gear point invested.  (obviously for tanks dealing with strike through this isn't always the case).

So if you're getting raid buffed to 8k + its a safe bet that mitigation on your gear will do more for you than hps at that stage.  This is completely ignoring the point that mitigation provides better healing efficiency (makes it easier for healers to keep you topped off with AOE heals etc.)

To look at it simply. 
5% mitigation on 7500hps is about a "free" 375 extra hps.  Pretty close to the raw hps you'd sacrifice on gear to get it.
5% mitigation on 9000hps is about a "free" 450 extra hps.  Well more than you get from the gear pieces so its a hands down better deal.

I've got about an extra 10% migitagion coming from gear and raid buff to between 8k to 9k depending on who's present.  There is no way I'd get 800 to 900 raw hps from the gear I'm getting that mitigation from.


That said if you're raid buffed below 7500hps...you definitely need to focus on getting your hps up first.  You'll get better returns.  Wink

And yeah simon, you're right on the money in retrospect.  I had never looked at the psi buffs closely.  Oh well.  Wink 
On the bright side thestran boosts damage to fire and ice...so that's always nice.  Smiley
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Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2008, 09:46:11 AM »

Thats some sticky math:-p  Youve got the right idea, but % mitigation benifit isnt based on your hp...5% mitigation isnt the same as free hp, it all depends on how hard the mob hits.  To determine when the hp loss is worth the mitigation gain, you have to look at it as "what hp will i be left with after getting hit"

Scenario 1; Raid buffed monk with 7500 hp, + hp gear not mitigation, 5k dmg hit
5k hit leavse you at 2500 hp.  The hit took 66% of your hp, and left you with 33%

Scenario 2: Same monk as secnario 1, but now wtih 4 pieces of mitigation gear instead of hp.
Lets assume those 4 pieces add 2% mitigation each, but cost 170 hp each.  Your losing roughly 700 hp to gain 8% mitigation.

So that 5k hit now does 4600 ( 400 less), taking you from 6800 to 2200.  The hit took 68% of yur hp and left you with 32%...********** notice your now 300 hp less then you would be if you had just hp gear




Now the same thing with a 10k hp monk.
Scenario 1: Mob hits for 5k, wearing hp gear
You lose 50% of your hp

Scenario 2: Mob hits for 5k but your wearing mitigation gear, (8% more mit 700 less hp)
Mob hits for 4.6k, you are left with 4.7k.  You are left with 300 less hp then you would if you had hp gear, but also have ~7% less hp.


Even at high hp losing hp to gain mitigation % at a 1:1 ratio is a losing afair.   For mitigation to be benifical as a trade off for hp, the mitigation % needs to be twice the hp %.

Scenario 3: 10k monk, lose 700 hp to gain 16% mitigation. 
5k hit now does 4.2 (800 less), leaving the monk with 5.1k Hp.  This is the turning point at which the trade off is even.  You lose 7% hp, gain 16%, and now when you get hit once your hp if finally higher then it would have been.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 09:47:49 AM by Fujitsu » Logged

Ronmaru
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2008, 06:51:32 PM »

It really is as simple as I laid it out.

To go by your approach however, consider that in scenario 2, your monk lost more %wise in the first hit but that's merely a matter of your choice of how many hps you feel the 8% mit would cost in gear.  The part your missing is that the remaining 32%hps on the monk with mit gear is more valuable than it would be on the monk with 33%hps left.  AKA he's also going to mitigate the next attack incoming as well.

In a nutshell the glitch in your math is that it goes with the view that only the first attack is mitigated.
Consider your setup with 10khp and 8%mit. 

Scenario 1, the monk with 10khps and no mitigation dies in two hits.  (10k -5k -5k = dead)
Scenario 2, the monk with 9300hps and 8% mitigation lives (10k -700 - 4600 -4600 = alive (barely))

So its CLEARLY more beneficial at that point to go with mit.

Additionally mit doesn't "seem" to cost 170hp per 2% I'll have to double check but I felt it tends to be more around 130-150ish?  Some peices of quested dropped jewlry seem to have mit at a good value, RI jewlrey has over 2% on a single piece.


But to put it into a more practical situation, most apw attacks are of two varieties.  Punishing attacks for very high damage, and sissy but frequent attacks.  With decent hps and/or mit you're going to typically be able to take about 2 big hits.  If your mitigating more of that it will be easier for a healer to keep you safe without peeling aggro.  AKA most healer's "big heal" with reasonable gear heals about 5kish.  If you're taking notably more than that it becomes very hard for them to keep up.  If you're taking less than that its much easier and sustainable.

If you are getting nailed with damage sheild hits, constant small aoe hits etc. more mitigated once again makes it more likely for a healer to keep you up and running easier.

But this is assuming you've got all the important stuff nailed out already.  Like having enough hps to make mit worth it.  That and, once your survival is "good enough" ... unless you tank a lot in groups you'd be better off going for more %damage/stats/crit etc.

Either way going for a lot of hps or a good amount of hps+mit will get the job done.  Smiley
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Fujitsu
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dustincfoley@live.com dfoley323
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« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2008, 07:48:12 PM »

You cant mitigate an ae unless its a melee ae.  Which most arent.

As for the hp vs mitigation.  On crafted gear the hp ranges from 130 a piece to 230 a piece.  Once you put mitigation on an armor piece ALL that hp goes POOF.  And you end up gaining (1.2- 2.3%) per piece.  I was just trying to use average numbers

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Ronmaru
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 11:16:43 AM »

You cant mitigate an ae unless its a melee ae.  Which most arent.

You are correct most AOE are spell based, that said mitigation adds to both melee and spell thus it works on ALL AOE.

You're thinking about physical absorbtion crystals (melee mit only)

Protection adds general mitigation = mit vs all.  Hence it works peachy on AOE.

Yeah I understand the dynamics of using protection crystals (hp/energy trade off for mit, hps also range further than 230) etc.  One of my alts is L50 leatherworker.  Wink
I just didn't do the math to see how many points of hps gets converted to how much %mit.  Its likely to be a static value regardless of what piece you use.  I just didn't take the time to peg it exactly, might do that this weekend just for purposes of accuracy.  /shrug

That said I've often considered the merrit of making a few peices of spell absorbtion (head peice etc.) to use in conjunction with protection just for situations where you know in advance you'll take heavy spell damage.  (spell or melee only mitigation gives a fair amount more %mit per gear point than general mitigation does, and as you pointed out most AOE are spell based so it may be preferable to skip general mit in favor of spell mit in APW).

Of course...its damn annoying that its essentially impossible to get med crafted gear without some worthless stats on it other than pariah's for monk.  Which of course loads us up primarily on dex...there isn't a good way to get a large amount of str/int without also taking on vit/wis which does us precious little good.

Edit took a little time.  1point of general mit = roughly 2.7ish hps  And 1point of mit = roughly .027ish% mit.
So roughly 100hps converts to 1%mitigation.  So my initial guesstimate was pretty off.

So yeah takes A LOT of hps to break even.  Wink

Still I like it.  Smiley


Incidentally crit bonusgive slightly less bang per hp spent trading at about 1 point per 3ish hps or roughly 111hps per 1%crit.


Specific mitigation (melee or spell) gives a much better return per hps sacced, but also (obviously are not quite as versitile).

Outside of APW I'd say melee mit is vastly more useful, but inside I woud lean towards spell mit being more useful.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 11:40:29 PM by Ronmaru » Logged
Ronmaru
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2008, 05:26:31 PM »

Okay so i looked it up on curses, so mind you these might not be 100% accurate but they give you the picture.   This is a comparison of hp vs protection gear

Head
48 mitigation or 140 hp (1.3%)  ~3hp/1mitigation
Boots
72 mitigation or 152 hp (1.9%) ~2hp/1mitigation
Shoulders
72 mitigation or 152 hp (1.9%) ~2hp/1mitigation
Legs
118 mitigation or 290 hp (3.2%) ~2.5hp/1 mitigation

734 hp given up for 8.3% mitigation (i guessed it pretty much right on)

So if you were 7k raid buffed youd lose 10% hp (6266 hp) but would gain 8.3% mitigation.  AKA the average 5k hit goes to about 4.6k.  Only 400 less dmg taken but you lost 700 hp.   So instead of being at 28% hp your now at  26% hp.   So yes the over all conclusion would be to get atleast 9k hp before you start trading off hp for mitigation. 

Hrm...if that's correct then it blows away much of the traditionally held theory about equipment having x number of points to spend and certain things burn up y amount of that total pool?  It would suggest that some bonuses are cheaper on certain pieces than others?  Which is very strange to say the least.(but might explain why the RI mitigation jewlrey seems to be a rediculously good deal?)  I'm going to be making another full set for a bard soon.  I'll cross compare some of the peices as I make them and verify.  If that's the case it would stand to reason that some gear peices are biased towards particular stats/bonuses.  Which would be VERY enlightening vs. the current crafting/equipment mindset to say the least.  It would make boots/shoulders a bargain, head a ripoff, and legs somewhere between.

Thanks for the info.  When I get time I'll see what I can verify etc.  I'm insanely busy atm but I will eventually get around to it.
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Fujitsu
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2008, 06:41:18 AM »

Actually it does and doesnt.  Items do have set points to distrbute but i think the reason you see such variance is its probably item dependant.  As in to put crit at all on an item costs X points, then the amount of crit is based on item specific multipliers.

Im sure the code is so convoluted that its not a simple 20 points = 100 hp or 50 mitigation. 
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