That pretty much sums up the lack of very detailed examples. And is why I don't even use Quickening jolt personally.

I'm sorry if it's cryptic but I'm not personally going to post a way to accomplish something that is unintended. I can promise you I have seen the "total" damage from the hits exceed 300k in one ability, not adding up all the lines of text but the actual total which is posted as the last line of text.

Nothing else I can do for you though, just going to have to either believe those of us telling you it exists or not.

I have actually stated a few times how it is reproduced.

Errant Fists+Fists of Celerity+Quickening jolt+ the Thousand Fists lines.

If you have read and understand Talisker's (or was it Tiraslee's) post about it on the main formus then it should  make sense to you how it is achieved.

You mean his and my say so, cause I have said repeatedly that our drunken monk hits well over 200k+ and can do it multiple times durring a x99 fight. He posts over 12k dps on 99.

Even as a Dragon monk I do over 7k on 99 and I don't even use quickening jolt, I use frenzied.

It is very, very simple to see what is caising the gap in DPS. Wether it is a bug or was orginally intended but now revisted once they realized it is just to hard to get a handle on DPS with it in it's current form is irrelivant. It is the right thing to do, the changes will allow them to have more refined control over the damge being done to raid mobs.

And IMO a post calling out our Class lead is in poor taste. You could have easily just posted "I have been trying to reproduce the 200k+ hits and the soloing of trash mobs in APW but have not been able to. Can anyone please post either logs, a video or screenshots of them doing it?"

There is no conspiracy theory happening here, these changes need to be made. Two monks should not be the same as having 4-6 other DPS classes.

I believe it is a new legendary that was being reffered to.

It is my guess that it will not actually be dropped in APW though, I'm only guessing here but I think it is going to come from Fengrott. This is solely based on the idea that they added the new DK weapon to Dres so it seems like they would have added it to new mobs rather than chenging APW loot tabels.

I do hope they put one in the game for all of you who preffer 2hander weapons, I completely agree that the option really need to exist as well as atlest 1 more legendary 1hander (prefferably with melee centric stats +STR/DEX/INT/CON in that order)

Testing it alot lastnight and there is really nothing I can put my finger on. It's very random at best and honeslty it's just not that much of an issue to me.

It is highly possible that the times when this is happening is taking place around hate wipes, I have so much going on durring raids that I simply don't have the time to devote directly to testing it durring a raid.

All I know for sure that is from time to time after a successfull FD on non-hate wiping mobs I will stand up from a successfull FD and within second have agro. This only seems to happen on shor duration encounters, I never have issues with boss mobs.

If you would like me to logg to test and help there I can, but testing durring raids while trying to lead them is just too cumbersome to give you accurate information.

The devs have stated their vision.

Sorc top caster DPS and top overall DPS.

Rogue top Melee DPS
Monk Second Melee DPS.

In the end it will be this way, we will be one of the top DPS classes.

The bug fix is glarringly obvious to those of us that see it nightly in raid enviorments. I personally saw over a 300k hit lastnight on Malazath, and this hit wasn't alone it was accompanied by several 150K+ hits right infront of and behind it.

They will fix the bug and see where our DPS stands once it is corrected.

Remember as I have posted many times I do over 7k DPS on pretty much all bosses and I am a Dragon monk. I do not even have erran fists and I dont use quickening jolt I stick with Frenzy (simply cause I'm busy with stuff and dont want to micro manage yet another clicky).

I only have the single thousand fits/thundering fist chain with only those two abilities, so no errant strikes and no quickening jolt and I can still get over 7k dps, so rest easy in that while our numbers will dimisnish they are not going to drop to an undesired level. And if they do, they will adjust out damage skills to put us where they desire us to be, second highest melee DPS, which is pretty good in my personal opinion.

I solo trash in APW all the time and I'm a Dragon monk. I don't even have errant strikes nor any invulns.

Jakik hits regularly for 150-200k when he pops all 3 (errant strikes, FoC and Quickening). It's not make believe and is easily achieved.

On 99 for example I do over 7k dps as a Dragon and Jak can do over 10k dps.

This has to get fixed, plain and simple. I have no Idea why you are not getting the same numbers Fuji, but they are indeed easily achievable.

Errant strikes, celerity and quickening jolt used in conjunction, iirc

Not going to argue with that. Should have been handled in PM's.

My apologies.

As long as they take their time and impliment it the way they intend I think it's going to be pretty good overall, for the game, guilds and players.

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=31466


Upcoming Combat Fix Explained

Fusoya and I collaborated on this so thanks to him for providing data and feedback.

Greetings all, just wanted to make a post regarding the upcoming combat bug fix.  We know more than a handful of you are worried that rogue / monk and other melee DPS are going to have their abilities nerfed dramatically, as a result of this fix.  Let me assure you. The dmg of your abilities isn't being touched.  I repeat, none of the damage numbers for your abilities are being touched.  No refresh timers are being changed and no costs are being increased.  We hope to get this out for U6, but it won't be released until it is correct.

You should read through this post and make sure you understand it before you ask questions.

The Bug

The bug is a simple, but clever one.  It was not even a visible issue until U3 when players started raiding.  The bug is with flat damage buffs.  Flat damage buffs, like Marshalling Cry (adds x damage for a few seconds) were supposed to modify the damage of the ability in one place.  A simplistic example equation would be:

    Total Damage = (Ability damage + Flat Damage Buffs) * % Damage Buffs

So, if a Warrior, who had +20 flat damage from buffs, executes Kick, which does 20 damage and he had no other buffs, the resulting damage would be 40.  20 (ability dmg) + 20 (flt dmg) = 40 total.

Simple yeah?  We thought so as well.


The bug is this:  Flat damage buffs are being applied for every effect instead of once per ability.  If an ability has an offensively targeted effect that lowers target HP then flat damage is being applied to it.

Effects

What the heck are we talking about?  What are effects?  Let me explain.  Each ability (spell, melee attack, etc) is made up of multiple effects.  Effects are needed so that the ability can do more than one thing.  Example (Off targeted damaging effects in italics):

Boundless Fist - 6 effects (4 with can gain flat damage)

1 effect for melee damage plus dmg
1 effect that restores jin
1 effect for melee damage plus dmg if errant strikes is active
1 effect for melee damage plus dmg if Celerity is active
1 effect that deals additional damage if the opponent is dazed (weakness exploit)
1 effect that removes the dazed weakness from the target
1 effect that adds the weakness enraged to the target

Shank - 8 effects (8 that can gain flat damage)

2 effects for % weapon dmg
2 effects for the "plus damage"
2 effects for % weapon dmg if quickblade is active
2 effects for the "plus damage" if quickblade is active.
So abilities contain effects.  So, going along with what I said earlier, flat damage is being mistakenly applied to any effects that get fired.  That aint good and that is the source of the MASSIVE damage that certain classes can obtain by stacking abilities, exploiting weaknesses, etc.


So we can run through this now, with your new found insight into how the abilities work.

We'll use Shank for our example. 

Shank - deals % weapon damage plus a small amount of bonus damage. 

Quickblade - causes the Rogues attacks to strike twice for a short time.

Our Rogue (lets call him Mardolmer, shall we?) attacks a bad guy with and without Quickblade.  For the sake of ease, let's say that Shank's base damage is 900 and that the plus damage portion is 100.  He also has 500 worth of flat damage from buffs.

    How it is supposed to work w/o quickblade - the damage is 900 (base) + 100 (bonus dmg) + 500 (flat dmg) = 1500dmg.

    How the bugged version works w/o quickblade - the damage is 900 + 100 + 1000 (flat dmg being applied 2x) = 2000dmg.  Here we don't see a huge difference; we are only getting the flat dmg one additional time.

    How it is supposed to work w/ quickblade - 900 + 100 + 900 (quickblade) + 100 (quickblade) + 500 = 2500

    How the bugged version works w/ quickblade - 900 + 100 + 900 + 100 + 2000 (flat dmg applied 4x) = 4000.  This amount is MUCH more than we expect or desire.

So if you followed me through all that, you see that Flat Damage + an ability with multiple dmg effects is a recipe for crazy dps.  Bugged DPS.  I used 500 flat dmg in my example.  This is a very conservative number compared to what players can get in a raid.



Let's answer a few questions:

1. What is this combat spam?  How much dmg am I really doing?

Take a look at this image and then I will decipher it.



Orange Damage (Totaled Damage) is the total sum of an attacks effects and multipliers.
Blue Damage (Added Sums) is the effects and multipliers impacting orange damage.

Using the picture as an example, the final number (orange) for Thundering Fists is the sum of all the "quickly strikes" attacks as well as the damage from the Thundering Fist. The blue text is just what each effect hit for.

Multiple effects within attacks (Thousand Fist, Shank, Shiv, etc.) do not show up unless they are being modified by buffs that add additional swings (Quickblade, Errant Strikes, Fists of Celerity, etc.). When using these additional attack abilities you can see the number of effects in the base attack by the number of blue lines included in the attacks.

Example

[21:50:52] <BLUE>You quickly strike KOTASOTH, dealing 7139 damage.
[21:50:52] <BLUE>You quickly strike KOTASOTH, dealing 7281 damage.
[21:50:52] <BLUE>You quickly strike KOTASOTH, dealing 7121 damage.
[21:50:52] Your <highlight>Thundering Fists III</color> hits KOTASOTH for <highlight>43281 (30963+1231) damage.

**This information can also be learned from the tool tip of the ability: Thundering Fists III  - You pound your opponent with mighty strikes, hitting 3 times for melee damage plus 155. Only available after using Thousand Fists. Increases Jin by 1.**

 
2. Your above example didn't seem that impressive, is the bug really that bad?

Just read this example of real numbers, from a combat log.  The names have been changed to protect the innocent. 


A drunken monk (we'll call him Fusoyak) uses his Thousand Fist attack, which is part of a 4 part finishing chain,
Thousand fists has 3 effects.
He applies Errant Strikes to add an extra strike for each base effect. +3 effects
He also applies Fists of Celerity to add an extra strike for each base effect. +3 effects
This setup gives us 9 effects on the base attack.
Our Monk is fully raid buffed and is timing + flat dmg buffs and crit buffs.
If you apply abilities such as Quickening Jolt (doubles all damage for 8 seconds).  Quickening Jolt is fine when applied to a normal attack - but if it is modifying the flat dmg that has been applied 9x - the results get crazy.
This can result in attacks such as.....

                Wacky Monk DMG

                [21:52:14] <BLUE>An errant strike hits KOTASOTH, dealing 23395 damage.
                [21:52:14] <BLUE>An errant strike hits KOTASOTH, dealing 23469 damage.
                [21:52:14] <BLUE>An errant strike hits KOTASOTH, dealing 23397 damage.
                [21:52:14] <BLUE>You quickly strike KOTASOTH, dealing 21444 damage.
                [21:52:14] <BLUE>You quickly strike KOTASOTH, dealing 21623 damage.
                [21:52:14] <BLUE>You quickly strike KOTASOTH, dealing 21193 damage.
                [21:52:14] Your <highlight>Thundering Fists III</color> hits KOTASOTH for <highlight>197920(143920+54000)</color> damage.


This is ONE attack in a 4 step chain.  I think all can agree 200k attacks cannot be seen as balanced or fair to other classes.


3. You mentioned the weakness system.  How will that be affected?

Weakness exploit damage is also not supposed to receive the bonus from flat damage.  The results are too unpredictable and there isn't a way to fix it without our proposed bug fix (which I'll cover next).  Even if I made the damage from the exploit 1 point and you had 2000 in flat damage buffs it would be too much, not to mention they would suck for anyone who didn't have flat dmg buffs.

Again, we'll pull an example from a combat log.

Exploit Damage

                [21:47:39] <BLUE>You exploit the soul wracked weakness on KOTASOTH, dealing 1975 additional damage.
                [21:47:39] Your <highlight>Ashen Hand VII</color> hits KOTASOTH for <highlight>13699


4. What is this "bug fix" you keep talking about?

We weighed our options and instead of making a blanket change to how flat dmg is added we decided to add a coefficient field to each effect.  In essence this means that we can govern how much flat damage modifies each effect.  What am I talking about?  Let's take a weakness exploit.  Let's say it is supposed to deal 200 dmg when exploited.  We alter the coefficient to 50%.  This means that ½ of the flat damage that you have access to will be applied to the exploit damage.

To fix most of the problems, we will be setting the coefficient to zero on the extra effects on abilities.  It will still affect the base attack, but the added effects won't get the flat dmg.

That is really it.  That is the easy part, trust me.


5. Will my class be affected?

Answer for yourself - you will see a dmg difference if any of the following is true

You regularly combine flat dmg buffs and weakness exploits
You regularly combine flat dmg buffs and multi-swing abilities (Frenzy, Zeal, Errant Strikes, etc)                                                                                                               

If you answered no to the both to these, then you shouldn't notice any change at all.

If you answered yes to number 1, then you will notice a small decrease, unless you frequently get hundreds of flat damage buffs for the express purpose of exploiting weaknesses.

If you answered yes to number 2, then read on.

Some classes will be affected more than others because of ability makeup.  If you have abilities that cause your attacks to hit multiple times then you will be affected in some way or another. 


Low Levels: In any case, if you are low level, say below level 20, you will notice little or no change even if you do belong to a class that is affected the most in the above examples.  The flat dmg numbers at these levels just aren't that high, so you won't really miss much.

Solo:  Only those classes that have flat dmg buffs will notice a change and then only a very minor one.  If you are a Monk who frequently combines Jin Surge and 1k fists chain, you will notice a small decrease in dmg from that combo.  Paladins who Zeal and Marshalling Cry together will also notice a small drop.  Most classes will notice little or no difference.  Remember, we are not altering any buffs, attacks, etc, except to apply a coefficient for flat dmg.  All you bards out there worried that your flat dmg components are getting changed - don't be, as they are not being touched.

Group: The chance that you are currently stacking enough flat damage is still pretty small.  Even with crafted armor and have a bard, the effects should be rather minor.

Raid: The largest change will be felt of you are a raiding character and are able to stack a lot of flat dmg buffs at the same time.  If this is not you, then you will notice little or no change.  At this point, the largest offenders are Rogues, Monks, Tuurgin Shaman, Paladins, War Clerics and possibly Rangers, although this is not confirmed yet.  Of these, the first 2 are the biggest concern. 
I'm not going to beat around the bush on this one.  If you are one of these classes listed, your ability to achieve the amount of damage that you can currently will be diminished.  Yes, this is a dmg nerf.  Before you freak out, read the next portion please.


6. Whoa!  You are nerfing me!?  How will you make sure that this is balanced?  Or, phrased differently "Momma, I hate the bad man.  Make him go away."

We are spending the next several weeks gathering data and tweaking numbers and gathering more data.  Here's how this will play out.

We will do large runs of tests and gather dps data.  Raid tests, solo tests at various levels, group tests, etc.  We will measure kill times, sustained dps, etc.  This is mainly focused on the raid game because this is where we see the largest issues and thus, this is where we need to largest adjustments.
We will make the above changes to abilities by adding coefficients to offending abilities.
We will test again.  We will compare our first set of data with the new and then hold that up against our dps model.
We will alter the dmg of each class that does not fit that model.
We will alter NPC hitpoints to match the new DPS of players and raids
We will test again to make sure that we are spot on.
Monks and Rogues - yes, you are being nerfed at the highest end.  Together with Sorcerers you will still top the DPS charts - only the numbers will change.  I am not going to comment or promise a certain value of DPS.  If you were obsessed with breaking 100k dmg simply to see 6 digits on your screen, then you will be disappointed.  If your goal was to pump out the max allowed dps in the game - you will be happy.  All we are doing to adjusting the game so that the max is lower and so that you are in line with every other class.


7. How can I help?

We will take as much assistance as we can.  At some point in the near future we will make a post asking for help on the test server.  This will be our initial data gathering blitz.  We will gather our own data internally as well, but the more data, the better.  Once changes are made we will want another large battery of tests.  We will post more details about how best to get the data to us when the initial test phase gets closer.


Summary

Soloing, non-raid geared, non-raid buffed will see a very very minor decrease (almost unnoticeable) in overall damage output.

Overall raid DPS in particular by Rogues and Monks will see their spike damage reduced quite a bit, but remain fairly high on the parses (may need further adjustments).  These changes are not going to be implemented without extensive testing with and without raid buffs/effects. Monks and Rogues will not log in and see yourself at the bottom of the damage charts.

In conclusion, I hope this post helps relieve some of the worry that many of you are experiencing. The purpose of the fix is to reduce the spike damage that certain classes are currently able to produce. Normal combat will see very little, if any changes, as the changes will mainly focus on the abilities that allow those classes to modify their damage beyond logical expectations.

Please post if you have questions about what we have detailed here.

Like I said before, you were the one who accused us of exploiting. Make less blanket acusations (which your still doing) in the future. Wether luper knows or not makes no difference, she does not run our raids and is not randomly dying to use some wierd ass exploit. I think I would notice her randomly running up and dying to raid mobs before we fought them.

Like i first stated, our memebers know better than to even suggest we use any exploits. It's not who we are or what we are about, it would only diminish what we acomplish anyway.

You eep trying to derail it about me carring about who is number 1, You can bet your ass I care, but that is not what got me started.. read back and see my first post, all I asked was who you were reffering to as exploiting. I knew only a handfull of us had beaten Kota and I'm pretty sure even less have made a video of it.

Thats the part that ticked me off. Anyone can just randomly come onto a board and post whatever the hell they want with no proof whatsoever. What you did wether intentional or not was publicly dis-credit what over 30 members of our guild put time into accomplishing. As well as other guilds according to your post. That shows an unacceptable amount of class on your part IMO. That was and is my point, I am still either waiting for this proof you have or for you to admit you were just assuming other people used whatever exploits your guild is aware of.

As far as the SS's I removed that. I am above that and regret even mentioning it. I did remove it rather quickly so I assume only you saw it anyway.

Oh, really, mind posting that on your guilds forum for me. So you are admiting to only getting him first because he was bugged for weeks and unkillable?

Never played it down? Just minutes ago you said it was our guilds fault for our "inability to debugg the situation and figure out what was causing us to crash sooner".

I would just stand down and admit tha you shouln't have randomly accused other guilds, all but your own of course, of using exploits to kill mobs. Thats all my point was anyway, Kota kill is it's own issue and like I said, those that care know anyway.

**I edited some stuff out**

You know why they prolly recognized us for the Abom?

Becsuse we tested that on live for about 3 weeks too for them, look at the time between us getting the WWF on the griffon and Abom being killed.. really think it took us over a month to kill that guy?

They ninja patched in a fix and never told us. Then we heard it was killed while it was still unkillable as far as we knew. So we killed it first thing the next day on our fist pull. because we had already developed the strat but the fight was unkillable.

Convientent you can't find the vidoes of us so blantly exploiting.. man, you would think someone would have saved those things as seeing how it just showed how much the number one guild in the world was out exploiting content.

As for Kota.. we tried several different raid make-ups but it did include our necro everytime. And do you really think that had Kota not been bugged and been killable from day 1 we would not have downed him nearly 3 weeks before you even knew what the thing looked like.. keep patting yourself on the back and talking about how you earned it while trying to dismiss the fact that you know damn well we would have killed him with 1 to 2 days from the first attempt, which let me remind you.. again, would have been weeks before you guys even got to him. Your chunk wasn't brought down and it wasn't affecting you because you didn't have a necro using that graft in your raid. I'm pretty sure Avarem didn't even know you guys were on Kota so he only reset our chunk.

So keep talking crap posting in public forums about how we are exploiters along with "most guilds" without any proof and keep telling yourself your number 1, It's safe to say pretty much everyone who cares knows the truth anyway.

I don't believe you, the sky IS falling and we ARE doom!!