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1  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Bug / Nerf Rumors on: April 30, 2008, 12:59:46 PM
but that isnt a bug, thats how its been since day 1. 

I agree with that, the wording is definately wrong, insisting that its a bug fix is only serving the purpose of annoying a lot of people, calling this post Bug/ Nerf Rumors is likely to insult a lot of people as well.  Granted its all semantics for the most part but lets call a spade a spade OK?   /sigh

If they wanted to change how + damage was added to attacks, thats no longer a bug fix thats a change to combat mechanics, one that effects every class by a large ammount.

Not too sure about the effect every class by a large ammount bit?  From my understanding (Unless I missed something?  Wouldn't be the first time.) it really only should effect the listed classes, monk/rogue/pally/turg  aka classes with multihit abilities.  Others really shouldn't notice that specific change.  That said...

the game cannot be balanced with mechanics that are broken so severely.... it's something that needs to be done for the benefit of the game. If the (primary source of the out of control raid damage) wasn't found and fixed, we would more than likely see a flat % damage reduction to all of our abilities and end up having to experience a revamp every time levels / content / gear / buffs / mobs / abilities / anything changed.

Is pretty much spot on.  And hard to argue with.

Defining this (source of out of control raid damage) helped save the majority of the monk community a huge damage reduction (across all styles of play), by pinpointing the problems and just adjusting the broken components.

Is also pretty much spot on.

 but coding is not always as the tool tips read,

huge understatement

 and then worry about class balancing and adjusting our damage to fit the trend line.

If it all goes in as one patch which you suggested earlier...and frankly seems likely then it will all have to be taken into account simultaneously along with melee haste adjustments...which should save a lot of time in the grand scheme of things but also be a simply massive undertaking....I'll cross my fingers  Wink


Any class that has an ability similiar to   "300% Weapon damage + 254"  will be affected albeit slightly.   The way it should work is :   300% Weapon Damage + 254 + (+damage effects)    in otherwords, it should only apply one time.

The way it works now (for all classes with melee attacks like this) is: [ 300% weapon damage + (+Damage effects) ] + [ 254 +(+damage effects) ]   Basically, it's getting two of every +damage effect...2 bard songs, 2 frenzied symbiotes, 2 cleric buffs, 2 marsheling crys etc...   So every class will be affected some.  Classes, such as monk, rogue, war cleric, etc... that get mutliple strikes abilities in a single attack get the bonus each time they get an extra attack.  So with Celerity + Errant Strike + Thundering Fists, you're getting almost 50 applications of +damage when you should only get 8.  So ya, it's an across the board fix, but some classes will feel it much more than others. 
2  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Confusion in melee dps post. on: April 30, 2008, 11:08:42 AM

i like how you link that post as a proof of how it works, then use that post to link here and go see this is how it works.



It was redundant for Fuj to have posted in both spots before checking his facts.  I linked to here because VGplayers Table formats sucks, it's much easier to use the Joomla system which vanguardmonks and vgbards uses to accuractly show data.  I posted the explanation of what the abilities are doing there because that is where talisker posted his thread.  I cross linked the two so that they could both be taken into consideration.
3  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Confusion in melee dps post. on: April 29, 2008, 10:49:19 PM
For further reading check:  http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=31493#369726
4  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Dev posted the info on DPS changes on: April 29, 2008, 05:38:53 PM
I can say for sure that you are 100% wrong in your math though sung.

Ive tried 12 different weapon combos with different speeds and everytime I get the same result.

Melee dmg (main hand):  ((Weapon dmg + str bonus)*1.dmg modifier) + flat dmg
Off hand dmg ((0.5weapon dmg + 0.5 str dmg) *1.dmg modifier) +0.5 flat dmg

AKA 200 dmg weapon in main off.
500 dmg from str
50% dmg modifier
+200 from iron hands

main:((200+500)*1.5)+200 =1250
off: ((100+250)*1.5)+100 = 625

It adds 300 dmg, on every dual wield combo.  This is because its adding +200 to melee dmg not to the dmg of the next hit.  Its not adding 132 to main hand and 66 to the off hand, its 200/100

200 x 1.5 = 300   You are misinterpreting your own results more than likely.  % damage is added after all +dmg.  the fact that it's +melee damage really doesn't matter at all, +melee damage is the same as generic +damage except that generic affects spell damage as well.  I've done many many many tests concerning +damage (seeing as how bards biggest role is adding +damage) and I'm quite certain that my math is correct.But in order to ensure that I'm not mistaken, I'll test this on a L50 monk.   You can even see the results of adding specific amounts of +damage without adding any +% damage on a per hand basis here:  http://www.vgbards.com/forums/index.php?topic=2182.0

I posted my results here: http://www.vanguardmonks.com/option,com_smf/Itemid,27/topic,1096.msg8989/#msg8989   as I felt it was a more appropriate forum for the discussion
5  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Confusion in melee dps post. on: April 29, 2008, 05:36:22 PM
So I grabbed a 50 monk on test, stripped him naked, documented the resuls apporpriately. 

Stance - Dragon stance (Since it gives only health regen and no damage bonuses)
Wp - Weapons - Identical weapons 139-152
St - Str - 316 (+232.5 Dmg Bonus)
IH - Iron Hand - +200 melee damage
JS - Jin Surge - +364 damage

Note:  These tests were conducted on a L50 monk without Buffs (self buffs, others buffs, guild hall buffs) and completely naked other than the weapons.  The weapons themselves only gave +15 Str and had no other modifiers (such as % dmg). 



Damage Source
Wp + St
Wp + St + IH
Wp + St + Js
Wp + St + IH + Js   
Main Hand     
372 - 387
506 - 520
616 - 629
749 - 763
Off Hand     
185 - 193
251 - 260
306 - 315
372 - 381
Dmg Added MH / OH / Total Dmg

134-133 / 66 - 67 / 200 - 200
244 - 242 / 121 - 122 / 365 - 363
377 - 376 / 187 - 188 / 564 - 564

We can clearly see based on these results that Iron Hand (+200 melee damage) is adding +200 damage split amongst the main hand / off hand at approximately a 66% / 33% ratio (about 133 / 66)
We can clearly see based on these results that Jin Surge (+364 Generic Damage) is adding +364 damage split amongst the main hand / off hand at approximately a 66% / 33% ratio.  (about 243 / 121)
We can clearly see based on these results that when Iron Hand and Jin Surge, the additional damage is increased by 564 the total combined of +200 and +364 and is divided at a rate of 66% / 33% (about 376 / 188)

My conclusion is that +damage, regardless of source, is the same (other then what types of damage they affect) and in the case of melee based attacks is added at a rate of approximately 66% to the main hand and 33% off hand.  This includes the sources of +damage known as Iron Hand and Jin Surge.
6  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Dev posted the info on DPS changes on: April 29, 2008, 02:58:26 PM
I can say for sure that you are 100% wrong in your math though sung.

Ive tried 12 different weapon combos with different speeds and everytime I get the same result.

Melee dmg (main hand):  ((Weapon dmg + str bonus)*1.dmg modifier) + flat dmg
Off hand dmg ((0.5weapon dmg + 0.5 str dmg) *1.dmg modifier) +0.5 flat dmg

AKA 200 dmg weapon in main off.
500 dmg from str
50% dmg modifier
+200 from iron hands

main:((200+500)*1.5)+200 =1250
off: ((100+250)*1.5)+100 = 625

It adds 300 dmg, on every dual wield combo.  This is because its adding +200 to melee dmg not to the dmg of the next hit.  Its not adding 132 to main hand and 66 to the off hand, its 200/100

200 x 1.5 = 300   You are misinterpreting your own results more than likely.  % damage is added after all +dmg.  the fact that it's +melee damage really doesn't matter at all, +melee damage is the same as generic +damage except that generic affects spell damage as well.  I've done many many many tests concerning +damage (seeing as how bards biggest role is adding +damage) and I'm quite certain that my math is correct.But in order to ensure that I'm not mistaken, I'll test this on a L50 monk.   You can even see the results of adding specific amounts of +damage without adding any +% damage on a per hand basis here:  http://www.vgbards.com/forums/index.php?topic=2182.0
7  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Dev posted the info on DPS changes on: April 29, 2008, 04:48:29 AM
OKay just tested iron hand and what not.

Unbuffed: Naked (minus 2 flawless fistwraps of striking)
Weapon dmg main: 139-152 (avg: 145.5)
Weapon dmg off h:139-152 (avg: 145.5, 72.75)
Main hand dmg: 409 - 423 (avg: 416)
Main hand minus wpn: 270 (97% of str bonus)
Off hand dmg: 203 - 211 (avg: 207)
off hand minus 0.5*wpn: 134.25 (97% of 0.5*str bonus)
Str: 357
Bonus from str:276.7


Thousand 1984 (1358+626)   (melee+168) *3
Thunder 2103 (1437+666)    (melee +155)*3
Legendary 2081 (1373+708)   (melee+ 149) *3



Iron hand  +200 melee damage
1115-1137  (1327-1349)(+212)
554-569 (659-675) (106...half of 212)


+51.75% dmg rating (gear and self buff)
731 str (+679 dmg)
mathamatical Melee dmg: (145+679)*1.5175 +212 = 1462
Actualy melee dmg: 1423
mathamatical off hand dmg:(72.75+339)*1.5175 +106= 730
actualy off hand dmg: 701



Long story short, the +dmg is being added to the melee dmg, and as such isnt doing anything funky when you use thousand fists.  It was (literally melee+dmg ) *3 * mobs mitigation.  Tested before and after raid buffs, and it was always just melee+x *3.   So this leads me to beleive that iron hands +200 dmg isnt a flat dmg, and it is in fact +melee dmg. Aka

"increase the damage of all melee attacks by 200" = +200 main hand dmg and 100 off hand dmg. To the melee dmg itself



+damage is applied as a single unit to the end result, not 100%/50% in the manner of strength.  If you look at your char sheet specifically it's being applied approximately 66% to MH and 33% to OH.  So +200 damage is +200 damage.  If you have a Str bonus of 200 then that is beeing applied +200 MH +100 OH..
8  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Parse data on: April 24, 2008, 04:37:04 PM
I just wish he could post his explanation heh, still waiting on dev approval.  I got to proof read it, and it explains the issues in detail.  once you all see it a lot of people will be doing a 180 and saying "Holy SNARF, I had no idea". 
9  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Parse data on: April 24, 2008, 04:27:56 PM
Not quite true Kivik.  Before GU4 we used 0-1 rogues and 1-2 monks on Kota.  In order to get him down this time, we had to recruit another rogue and use 3 monks total = 1-2 rogues and 2-3 monks.  As a result, we had to sit out 3 classes who's DPS wasn't on par with the monk / rog in order to kill him.  That wasn't a stab at you man, sorry if you took it as such.   Trinity, BoW and Pain all had issues with their rosters, and in order to beat the new Kota we had to ramp up our DPS even more than before. 
10  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Parse data on: April 24, 2008, 04:11:44 PM
PS...that's my personal opinion, not some fact a dev told me.  IMO, no class should be doing more than 4.5k on raids.  It grossly inbalances content.  So much in fact, that some guilds that used to farm Kotasoth can no longer kill him. 
11  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Parse data on: April 24, 2008, 04:05:53 PM
More like 2.5-3k Kivik.   Thanks for playing though
And no Khana, Good monks should never do less DPS than good bards.  Bad monks...well maybe
12  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Parse data on: April 24, 2008, 07:19:23 AM
Your parse for monks seems extremely low. Are you Dual Wielding or using 2H?   Dual wielding (even crafted weapons) would yeild higher results thatn what you're showing and puts monks at about 6.2-6.9k DPS.  Do any / all of those classes have a cleric in the group with them?  And you said Sorc has a bard and all buffs...do the monks / rogues not have a bard and all buffs?  With bard Runes being broken, you shouldn't even need a healer for your sorc...but again, I'm wondering if he had a cleric in his group as well. 

My conclusion is that all melee DPS is too strong and caster dps, in general and excluding Psi parses (parses only, no idea how much DPS they really do) is right on target.  Sorcs / Nec / Druid all seem to be doing about 2.5-3.5k fully buffed DPS with a bard.   
13  General Topics / Vanguard General / Re: Blades of Wrath on Seradon Recruiting on: April 03, 2008, 07:28:48 AM
Branch of them yes.  Most the original members that came over have since retired although I believe will still have one or two from there. 

As an update, we've filled the spot, but if someone is interested, you can still apply and compete for the spot. 
14  General Topics / Vanguard General / Blades of Wrath on Seradon Recruiting on: April 01, 2008, 01:17:10 PM
Blades of Wrath is a top end raiding guild on the Seradon Server.  We've defeated all APW and overland boss content to date and we are looking for 1 highly skilled Monk up to the challenge of being the best.  This means knowing your class inside and out.  Our standards are high and it's not an easy task to join, but for those skilled individuals willing to put forth hard work, the rewards of breaking content first on Seradon are well worth it.  Our current raid schedule is set Sun - Wed (four nights a week) although other nights may be added as new content presents itself.  These positions are available as we are replacing a few inactive individuals on our rosters. 

Requirements:

- High playtime.  We are Eastern Time Zone and all raids typically start at 7:30 PM EST and last till the content is complete for the night. 
- Level 50 Monk (Other spheres / Alts are a plus). 
- Knowledgeable and able to learn quickly.
- Good Attitude.  Raiding can get tense and frustrating, you must be able to adapt and deal without getting upset.
- Able to achieve 500 Harvesting in one of the following: Skinning, Mining, Reaping (We can help you with this part).
- Love Vanguard and have no plans of "Seeing the end game and quitting".


Please contact one of the following individuals on Seradon or see our website at www.bowguild.org

Socratic / Kra
Mazam / Mazum
Fusoya / Fuso
Sokiri / Elyda
Sung
15  Monk Discussion / Monk Tactics & Techniques / Re: Stats for Increased Crits? on: December 20, 2007, 08:09:37 AM


Also, do yourself a favor, and focus  str over dex.  You can put 4 into each, each lvl so they will both get pretty high.  Str adds perm. damage to each attack and the dmg added doesnt decrease when you lvl.  AKA 400 str at 30 adds the same dmg as 400 str at 50.   However, dex does decrease.  400 dex at 30 may cap your crit percent, but at 50 you need 900 to get the same crit percent.

Just an added note here....damage bonuse returns which come from Str increase based on your level.  So at L30 you may 0.8123 damage per point of str, at 50 you would get something like 0.9150.  These are bard numbers from : http://www.vgbards.com/forums/index.php?topic=1821.msg19097#msg19097  so they aren't accurate for monks, but I've found use to be pretty close (Bards < Ranger < Monk < Rogue I believe in regards to str returns). 

Crit Returns from Dex do diminish based on level just as Fuj says, but the ranged damage bonus from Dex works just like str does in that it increases based on your level. 
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