End regen has been planed to be nerfed for ages, and sadly cylus is no longer with SOE.  (Today was his last day :-( )

That being said it would probably be best to say end regen will go to ever4 sec (same as power and current base end regen)  and im not supprised, however it will mean a considerable hit to harmonious dps as well as regular melee dps. 

Ill be sad to see cylus go, as he was one of the few developers i personally interacted with on the test.

I find that hard to beleive.

At 30 its minus 20% mitigation, and if your at 18 % mitigation  18 -20 = 0 thankfully.

At 50 with full ultra rare gear im sitting at 10% mitigation (20-10=10)

No offense to you quinn, i wasnt saying you only gave 85%.  However i would say that since your not as formiliar with drunken/dragon you might not have performed them to the best of you ability.  Little things like always using jin surge then feet of the fire dragon will garuntee you do atleast a 3k dmg (instead of the usualy 1k). 

I was refering to other class leads (such as rogue) only going about 85% because they might not use the same flettchettes or poisons. 

Also you might want to consider that drunken dps goes up abut 300 points when tanking due to slap hands, a counter attack that can be maintained indefinatly and dealls 200-400 dmg every time the mob hits the monk (its more a DSthat can crit  then a counter)  The reason drunkens dps is so high at all at 50 is because they have 4 hit thousand fist chain.  8 seconds out of every 45 is spent doing 6k hits (non crit), not to mention that drunkens offensive stance is almost identical to dragons (its missing a proc and 5% crit rate)

Also the drunken version of north wind is far more direct damage, and as quin said, the mob wasnt fighting back and as such that cuts harmonious's dmg by a lot. 

 

Well im not saying the class leads are the best at their, class.  Most of them know they their class well, and dont under stand how them being "old" matters. 

Yes if a test is run to manage dps of different classes, each class should have 4-5 people in it.  Thing is, at the end of the day there will be people who do way better then class leads and people who do worse.  The average will still be pretty close to the same, it will just show the range of dps that a class is capable of.

I understand the issue, lets say the ranger class lead sandbaged the tests, and didn't go all out, or didn't use a fighting style representative of all rangers.  Now the classes will be balanced based on a sub par rangers dps.  So monks may only get a 15% boost to dps when we really needed a 25-30% boost.  Its a very clear problem, however, soon all players will be able to copy their main to the test server, and will be able to more actively participate in events like this, the test server is also an amazing place to randomly find developers and chew on their ear for brief periods of time.  Not comforting, or reassuring i know, but i have some faith that for the most parts the class leads at least did 85% the dps of the best of their class.

Well you do the math let me layout the typical fight for you.  With aum kor and starting at 20 jin.

Time -2- Secret of fire -3 jin 40 sec buff
Time 0 - Whithering Palm - 400 dmg - +10% dmg for 60 sec -6 jin
Time 2 - Eagle Claw 4 - 240 dmg and minus 15% target mitigation for 24 sec Jin +1
Time 4 - Cresent Kick VI - 220 dmg (opens crits 90% of the time)  +2 jin
Time 6 - Thousand Fist - 3.6k +1 jin
Time 8 - Thunder Fist - 3.4k +1 jin
Time 10 - Ashen Hand - 1.5k dmg  -4 jin (opens finisher 70+% of the time)
Time 12 - Three finger strike + 700 dmg +1 jin
time 14 - Hammer Fist + 900 dmg +1 jin
time 16 - Palm explodes the heart  3.5k dmg +1 jin
time 18 - Crescent Kick - 220 dmg +2 jin
time 20 - Flying Kick - 1500 dmg +1 jin
time 22 - Eagle Claw 4 - 240 dmg and minus 15% target mitigation for 24 sec Jin +1
time 24 - Crescent kick - 220 dmg +2 jin
time 26 - North wind slaps the limb - 1600 dmg + 1 jin
time 28 - North wind breaks the trunk-   1600 dmg + 1 jin + 300 addition dmg every time mob attacks
time 30 - Ashen Hand - 1600 dmg - 4 jin
time 32 - Flying kick - 1600 dmg +1 jin
time 34 - Kick to the heavens - 600 dmg +1 jin
time 36 - Celestial kick of the master 1600 dmg + 1 jin
time 38 - Secret of fire -3 jin
time 40 - Ashen hand - 1500 dmg -4 jin
time 42 - Flying kick - 1600 + 1 jin
time 44 - Kick to the heavens 600 dmg + 1 jin
time 46 - Celestial kick of the master - 1600 dmg + 1 jin
time 48 - Eagle Claw 4 - 240 dmg and minus 15% target mitigation for 24 sec Jin +1
time 50 - Crescent kick - 220 dmg +2 jin
time 52 - Thousand fist - 3.5k +1 jin
time 54 - Thunder fist - 3.4k +1 jin
time 56 - Boundless Fist - 1200 dmg +1 jin
time 58 - Ashen Hand 1600 dmg -4 jin
time 60 - Crescent kick 220 dmg +2 jin

Jin spent - 28
Jin earned - 29
Net 1 jin gained

Again this is a typical fight for me, while ashen hand may be the biggest dmg regular attack harmonious have, dragons 2 endurance attacks are more damaging.  Simply swapping out an ashen hand for crescent kick  usually guarantees a crit, while netting me 2 jin (instead of costing me 3) this allows me to do a few things
1) I maintain a constant level of dps, while i could easily throw in an ashen hand or 2 more, i keep a constant level of jin for self buffs in case i want to swamp in celerity or transcendence. 
2) This maximizes the dps with debuffs and self buffs always being maintained
3) even with 40% increased endurance cost, i still never go less then 50% endurance (have +5 endurance regen gear)

The reason i do this is simple, if i go all out and do max dps with ashen hand, then the next fight i cant do the same dps, and to me, its not worth it to do high dps one fight low dps the next 2. 

From what i heard it was only class leads, and they were all given semi identical gear and weapons (ala thats why quinn got dual wields, cause i dont think rogue or ranger can use two handers)

So while results may vary person to person/setup to setup, for the most part the class leads know how to play their class and ahve been since beta, and as such are very representative of the community.

You seem to forget gear can add + melee damage rating, which is the exact same thing as dmg modification.  1 weapon can add 10% dmg modification.   With additional gear its very easy to get to 20% dmg.

Ive been playing all 3 classes for roughly a week each (exception being dragon, i leveled 1 to 50 on it) and i can honestly say you under rate the crits of harmonious, while not every time, when they do go off you get +a 1.5 dmg hit to a 2.0 dmg hit.   Which overal averages out (so far) to about a 25% dps increase over not having it, where as +24% dps on dragon is always 24% more dmg. 

So yes, you are right and you cannot directly copare dmg to crits, but its sufficent to say that 30% crit = 25% dmg.  Add in the fact that we already know that 5% crit (dragon)< 10% dmg (whithering palm), and its very clear that dragon have little (i say none) advantage over harmonious. 

Not to mention harmonious can debuf 15% of targets mitigation, further increasing their own dmg.

I disagree with you on the cost of jin on whithering hand needing to be taken into account, i sit at 15 to 20 jin the entire fight, i use some at the start for secrets, an ashen hand here and there, and a whitering palm every 60 sec. 

Yeah the kick line has no cool down and averages about 6k on my harmonious.  Im not ever sure what the divine avalanche line averages since i never use it.   Dont get me wrong i still think dragon monk needs extra work to set it above harmonious and drunken. 

I was just making a suggestion as far as all monks go. 

Dragon monks sadly need a lot of work to get their dps where it should be.  They have the least utility of the monks and no special defensive skills that help them stay alive.  Add on top of that they sit on a mitigation penalty of 20% (lvl 15 to 29) 15% (30 to 49) and 10% (50).    Harmonious monks sit on a endurance penalty for their offensive stance, 40% might seem hefty, but with 3-5 endurance regen it doesnt even phase me. 

All dragon monk skills need a good looking at and hefty buffing.  More damage, more weakness exploits, etc.  Not to mention our Storm dragon stance (offensive) need a bit of improvement.  Drunken sit at 22% dmg, and dragon get 24% dmg 5% crit and a 10% proc.  Which at first seems like more then enough difference....but then you realize drunken are the DEFENSIVE monk and dont get a mitigation penalty to their stance.  That 10% mitigation debuff (20% originally) should mean a lot more offense then it gives.   Personally, i think the offensive stance line should look like this (i forgot their names :-( )

Storm Dragon- 25% dmg 10% proc 5% crit - 20% mitigation
Mighty Storm Dragon - 30% dmg 15% proc 10% crit
Legendary Storm dragon  - 35% dmg 20 % proc 15% crit

That 10% more crit and damage at 50, and for the monk thats supposed to be the most offensive that seems more in line to me.  As is harmonious sit at 30% crit (stance) 10% dmg (whitering palm) and dragons sit at 5% crit 24% dmg.

Before
 Dragons get 14% more dmg and 25% less crits then harmonious.  Leaving us at an impass because technically, harmonious is getting more overally damage modifiers.
After
 Dragons would get 25% more dmg and 15% less crits then harmonious,  This makes it so we actualy have 10% more dmg modifiers then harmonious.

Additionally i think sun dragons corona needs to be changed, currently its a damage shield, which doesnt make sense to the fact that dragon monks are not the dps tanks.  Not really sure what id want atm, but a damage shield really is wasted on a toon that gets hit harder because of mitigation penaltys.  Maybe a large dmg fire proc, or a buff to enhance fire procs (secret of flame) or hell even a 10% haste (even though its useless it makes more sense then a ds)

For solo harmonious wins hands down, they get numerous debuffs especially while solo. 

The only reason drunken is out dpsing dragon in my parses is because of how similar their offensive stances are, and drunken gets 2 additional attacks to thousand fist line.  So at 50, a drunken is at 22% dmg mod (dragon at24) and can use 4 different thousand fists in a row every 45 sec with aum kor.  (8 sec of which are used up just using the 4 attacks) so basicly from the time u hit the 4th thousand fist, you have 37 sec (18 attacks) to fill the void. 

I will post a way more indepth summary on friday.

I am giving each style a 1 week play through in  a standard raz group (with bard) so i can get my own personal idea of which one actually is the best dps.  Didnt really want to say anything till i could drop 3 weeks of parsing into the forums and show how the 3 compared.

So far it seems like dragon and harmonious are about even, and drunken is a smidge higher, but ill post that on friday when i get the final numbers in

Here we go.

With iron hand 6 (+91 to melee attacks)
Main hand 742-757
Off hand 369-378
Without iron hand 6
Main hand 679-694
Off hand  337-347

Difference
Main hand + 63  (9% increase in dps)
Off hand + 31    (9% increase in dps)
Total = 94 (probably modified from all my + melee dmg rating gear)

So no, iron hand currently adds to the melee dmg for one, and for two it adds to the main and off hand to TOTAL 91.  Aka, at 50, with the 2 largest dmg dual wields, you get a 9% increase.  So at 50, we would be gaining 6% dps and 10% crit over current.  Which seems reasonable.

Try to remember that the +91 from iron hands doesn't scale with new weapons.  Lets say raids come along, and all of the sudden you have 2x 88 dps dual wielders.  Iron hands would only add 4% to your total dps. 

While i would absolutely love 30% dmg and 10% crit buff, i feel thats a bit over powered, considering dragon stance adds 24% dmg currently, which i believe is the best stance in the game.   I think at most, 20-25% dmg at 50 would be the most we could reasonable ask for.  Simply because that would put dragon monks at + 50% dmg.

My suggestions would be to modify iron hand

Ih 1 = +9 dmg, ih6 = 90 dmg... overall very unimpressive self buff.

How about:

Iron hand 1 = 5 % crit 10% melee dmg
ih2- 6% crit 11% dmg
ih3- 7% crit 12% dmg
ih4- 8% crit 13% dmg
ih5- 9% crit 14% dmg
ih6- 10% crit 15% dmg

As long as tihs stacked with dragon/harmonious stances, it would easily bump us up the dps gap considerably. 
Dragons offensive stance + ih6 = 39% dmg and 15% crit
Harmonious offensive (with withering hand) = 25% dmg and 40% crit
Both of those are very solid numbers and easily would make monks in offensive stance a force to be reconed with.

Before anyone says its out of line/over powered....Tiger talisman is a lvl 18 ranger buff that adds 5% crit and 15% melee dmg. 

The only reason i suggest this is,
1) it makes our self dps buff better then just +dmg and would scale with us
2) its more inline with other offensive class dps buffs
3) it wouldnt require a whole new system to be put in just a modification of an old system.

Also if you absolutly must have the bigest dps weapon currently available to the game.

Power Balde staff of devastation.  Its about 9% more dps then any other ultra rare two hander, which is a lot when it comes to finishers like thousand fist.

I personally use a martial staff of corruptions (uses the crystal of weakening) 90% of the time as a harmonious monk since it procs about every hit,  its 15 seconds of -270 to all resists and -15% avoidance from your target.  Basicly its a kick ass dps buff for the entire group since melee hit more often and casters are resisted less.

Earthtouch is a bad ass proc, its a shame it doesnt snare atm :-p 

FYI the martial sword is actually Martial sword of scorching (procs frost)

Sadly i have tried devastation in off hand and it doesnt hold a candle to striking.  The main hand was about the same, but the off hand lost about 20 dps vs jagged fist wrap of striking.


Few things to note about off hand <-> main hand interaction.

1) You only attack once, even if you have 2 different delay weapons.
2) To accomidate for 1), your weapon delays are averaged and this becomes your new delay (although it might be weighted)
3) If equiping a new off hander LOWERS the main hand dmg (attack numbers) then i would venture a guess you probably lowered the average delay of the two weapons by using a faster off hander.   

So i went ahead and found a Powered blade staff of devastation.

+200 melee dmg rating 5.41%
+177 dmg rating 4.7 %


So yeah, the power focus crystal adds damage rating.  Which is the same as adding a bonus to weapon dmg about (+8 dmg), where as melee dmg rating adds it to melee dmg. 

Give me some time and ill parse some stuff and let yall know.