On a side note, the drunken middle stance (10% refresh haste) stacks with aum kor and takes thousand fist to 37 sec reuse, but you gain 20% more agro and lose 22% dmg per hit, i didnt enjoy it that much ;-p

Its multy fold, but yes, thousand fist x4 every 20 seconds was 90% of my dps, because it took 8 seconds to do all 4 hits, and then only 12 seconds until i could do it again.

That along with the 5 piece armor bonus that lets us proc fist of celerity is how i did most of my dps. 

Little things i did for more dps was maxing int instead of dex, in a raid i never have issues with cits so the 20% bonus for 900 dex was worthless.  After removing all dex and putting it into int, my secret of flame went from 1100 dmg to 2600 ish dmg.  I lost maybe 5% crit for doing that (still get to 700 raid buffed dex, 1200 str, and 900 int) so the net effect was moot.

Aum kor + bard coda + psi refresh haste was huge. 

Not sure who is still left and raids, but i felt gu5 pretty hard. 

Coda+psi buff + aum kor used to stack and reduce 1 min attacks to about 20s reuse.

Now none stack and half the time the psi buff doesnt work if i had aum kor on and cancle one or the other.  Also 1 min attacks are now 43s at the fastest now, and 47s on average.

In turn my average dps went from 5-6k (no dmg exploits since i dont know them) to about 1.7-3.3k.....my hits are still the same, thousand fist lands for about 20-35k.  Just instead of every 17s its every 47. 

If your in a raiding guild, get t5 armor made and just get heg for bp/legs.  I would stick to generic gear with nothing other then str/dex/con so you get you max your hp. 

Swamp armor can take quite a grind to get all the pieces and ends up being just as expensive as player made when you go to upgrade it.   Lucent jewelry is the tops, but it also is gonna require a bit of grinding to get, specially if you don't have a temple flipper. 

Raiding 5 months now, and the only slots im missing are a second weapon, ring, earring, and a mask.  So jewlery from lucent will last you a long while

check the worn buff,  its what actually changes.

Starts at like 5 run speed 1% crit +15 to heals and ends up
15% run, 3% crit/dmg, +50 to heals (totally made those numbers up to give you an idea)

With that i leave you guys.  Ill still play vanguard but this whole lie and nerf is enough that i no longer will be active in the monk community nor do i wish to be.  Ive recieved rude replies from developers flat out bashing me on the offical forums and in msn conversations where i tried to get clarification. 

Its obvious they only care about a small group of people and with that i will let them do what they wish because it stoped being our game a long time ago.

Few quick factoids on how monks dmg currently works.

First, Thousand fist is (melee +176 )*3

As per Fusoya's post at the monk site, when he gets his raid buffs, his main hand/off hand dmg are as follows (theres a ss )

Main: 4582-4675  (4628)
off: 1578-1590   (1584)

So doing simple math to determine how much damage a single thousand fist will do with buffs.  ES is errant strike, FoC is fist of celerity, and jolt is quickening jolt
Base: 14412+ 5016 = 19428
+ES: (14412+5016) + (14412+5016) = 38856
+ES&FoC: (14412+5016) +(14412+5016) +(14412+5016)= 58284
+ES&FoC&Jolt:(28296+9768) + (28296+9768) + (28296+9768)= 114,192

With crit (1.5*dmg): 171,288.  Thats the magic 200k crit they were talking about all right.  And that was just with me averaging numbers and not using the max.



The bug (the claim as per taliksars post):
 Total Damage = (Ability damage + Flat Damage Buffs) * % Damage Buffs

How it actually is:
total damage = ability damage.
Ability damage (if based on melee dmg) = melee dmg +x
Melee damage = ((weapon dmg + str +flat dmg) * %dmg buffs )


Claim 2:
Boundless Fist - 6 effects (4 with can gain flat damage)

    * 1 effect for melee damage plus dmg
    * 1 effect that restores jin
    * 1 effect for melee damage plus dmg if errant strikes is active
    * 1 effect for melee damage plus dmg if Celerity is active
    * 1 effect that deals additional damage if the opponent is dazed (weakness exploit)
    * 1 effect that removes the dazed weakness from the target
    * 1 effect that adds the weakness enraged to the target

Boundless fist: Melee +174
With the above example, that's (4628+174) + (1584+87) and appears as (4802+1671) in the actual combat log.  So wheres the extra damage they claim?  According to them, it should be added 4 more times, which would in theory make the attack over (7000+2500) which is down right false. 

The actual issue:
Skills like quick blade and fist of celerity "strike twice". What does that mean, well as you see above, it is the equivalent of if you pressed the attack button twice.  The claim is that the flat damage is being multiplie, when it isnt.  The flat damage is being added once to each "strike" so your attack may have 2 times the flat damage, but that is because it is a double attack and each attack receives its individual flat dmg bonus.  This is due to how flat damage is added to melee damage directly and then modified with buffs.  A fully raid geared/buffed monk has ~100% dmg mod runing full time.  That already doubles the flat dmg mod, then you add in FoC and it takes that doubled flat dmg, and makes it hit twice, appearing like it is 4x the intended flat damage.  then with FoC and ES, that 2x flat damage is hitting 3x, so it appears like 6x the flat damage.


The fix:
To apply flat damage at the end of attacks instead of adding it to melee dmg.  So instead of being
Melee damage = ((weapon dmg + str +flat dmg) * %dmg buffs )
now it will be
Melee damage = ((weapon dmg + str +) * %dmg buffs )

Then the flat damage will be added after the ability damage.  This isnt a bug fix, this is a flat out nerf.  THey can call it what they want.  Overall this lowers melee dps and allows them to be on even grounds with casters.  So instead of just caping + flat damage to the one buff with the most +flat damage, or making a max +flat dmg cap, they are instead making it so overall melee damage will be lower. The could of also given us the same cap as casters of a max of +40% dmg rating. 

lol little sarcastic arent we puller ;-p

Id personally rather not be a raid tank, just being able to function in groups is enough for me, which mainly requires
1) defensive stance to have + hate (not middle)
2) jeering kick to be more useful


I like hate transfer, something like eq1 where we can feed x amount of hate from each attack to the tank would be nice.  Require us to be in MT group or something so its balanced.  Or a group only hate reduction buff that effects casters AND melee, requiring us to be in the group. 


I like high melee dps, just dont want to see dragon become elemental reliant unless they get all 6 elements that way they can do the job right.  If they only get 3/6 elements, it seems like they would only be good 50% of the time. They do seem more melee oriented then dragons, so it wouldnt be horrible. 

Appreciate the input

Agreed, i personally am already leveling a shaman and psi to 50 incase monks become obsolete.  I enjoy raiding but if I will be benched then ill find a way into the raid with a more usefull class

First off you are wrong in how Errant strike/fist of celerity works.

It adds an extra swing, not doubles your current damage.  JOLT doubles your current damage.

TF - 8k
FoC- 8k +8k
ES+Foc - 8k+8k+8k
ES+Foc+jolt - 16k+16k+16k

So under the current system it would be more accurate to say.

              CURRENT              NEW
TF                5289                  3920
FoC             10578                7158
ES               15156                13630
QJ               30312                26577

Sano is an incredibly frustrating/buggy fight.  It took me 10 tries to beat him because he would still hit me even if i reflected the spell. 

However when i beat sano, i got the update and instantly ported out, never saw a chest or got to loot anything

2) it would seem to me that how it is sposed to work with quickblade would be:
=(900+100+500)+(900+100+500)
 since, if you hit the shank button twice you would get:
[button hit 1]
=900+100+500
[button hit 2]
=900+100+500

*NOT* as talisker is suggesting =(900+100+900+100)+500

can you explain why he is going with the later explanation?


I asked the same thing, and their answer was a un appeasing "because thats how we want it to be now"  Basiclly your 100% right on how it should be (its actually pretty close to how it is atm), it just comes down to difference of oppinion.  Developers feel melee are too over powered so they find ways to nerf existing systems. 

The issue comes down to flat damage being added to melee damage.  For skills like boundless fist, its Melee + bonus damage, so if boundless fist hits twice, you get 2x melee + bonus.... and the melee CONTAINS the + damage.  For weapon dmg attacks (shank) its just adding the +flat to the end of the attack.  It should work the same for MELEE and WPN DMG based attacks. 

My best guess is its harmonious monk+bear shaman stacking -15% mitigation (minus 30 total), with max ac debuffs and rogue force crits.

That nets you 8 seconds of a mob with 30% less mit, and garunted crits on thousand fists/thunder fist.
Max + damage % buffs (belt of ages, paladin aura, bard song, cleric buff)  AND jolt/errant/quickening. 

Cant really test it till we get a harmonious monk and bear shaman, or an active paladin, but its worth a shot.  Although to hit a 200k crit, you would have to hit for 133k base damage on thousand fist.  Which is still 60k more then i hit for (only need +75% more dmg...) 

At this point proof is irrelevant.  They will nerf everyone to do the same dps no matter what.  I still cant reproduce the thits myself and i still parse in the 5k+ range so I just accept that their are buffs/debuffs they arent mentioning, and said buffs/debuffs are the key factor.

I personally dont beleive a drop of the reason behind the nerf, or the whole "skills are having + damage added for each effect (stun, dmg, jin) etc."  To me I see exactly how the damage is added, straight to the melee damage, and modified from there.  But at the same time it doesnt matter, because they will change the system to how they see fit, nerfing everything and claiming its a bug, not matter what we post.  About now the only thing that would stop it is if silius, taliksar, tiraslee, and Phanthom all got fired and replaced.