Also im willing to bet the change to ashen hand from 10s to instant was due to the fact it turned drunken monks into 1 button wonders.   We would staggering punch + crescent kick + boundless fist (4jin total) then sit there mashing boundless fist 5 more times till the timers on staggering punch and crescent kick were up.

Having the option of ashen hand is a lot nicer then pressing  123, 33333, 123, 3333  with an ashen hand every so often.

Also i dont know if you new drax but they added superior finishers for thundering fist, kick to the heavens, and (second hit of the ae).  Not sure, the damage increase was decent though.

Now to just get more monk weapon options ><

I think if you step back and look at the damage over a 2 minute fight, you would prefer the ashen hand at  instant reuse 200% dmg over the 10s reuse 300% dmg.

Its literally the difference between 60 hits for 200%  or 13 hits for 300%... (assuming you have infinite jin, aka disciple feeding you jin).  Theres just no contest.

As for transcendence, i sent avair an email asking if it can be made a perm secret like fire/ice along with the bug list i made here with yalls feedback/input.  Not sure what (if any) will be fixed, but it was worth a shot

I may be wonky, but what do you mean barb?

If you will always have a trio i would go dragon/harmonious at lower levels.  Dragon are terrible solo but in groups are fine.  Harmonious are great for solo, small group etc, but their dps is kinda poopy at 50 in comparison (for now)

However, with the dps revamp harmonious dps will be considerably closer to the other 2, and just note that you can always switch your style at any time, just have to do a 30 minute quest.

Fatigued is apparently the buff you get when you proc with the fabled monk weapon.  Odd that something that restores stamina is called fatigued.

You realize its not just drunkens ;-p

All monks have the following atm:
Secrets = reduced to 50% proc instead of 100%
Crescent kick-- went from 8 seconds to 12 seconds
thousand fist - went to 1 min 30 sec
ashen hand went to 10s (will have lower dmg soon)

And that was just the first wave...

Overall im slightly upset because instead of fixing sorcs, they are nerfing us.  But if their ultimate goal is to have all melee in this magic 3-4k range then the will definitely achieve it.  And atleast we will still have a spot in raids since Melee A = B so any melee is fine now.

Okay I will use a 2 hander and and 2 identical one handers for an example.   This is just an example I am at work and dont have access to any of my real numbers so just make believe like they are real so you can get idea of where the vaules come from.

Str: 900, + dmg = 450 for dual wielders and 450*1.2 for 2 handers
Flat dmg: +200 from iron hand, +450 from str

Weapon dmg: 2 hander 275-300
2x one handers 145-165 (each)


Attack: Primary hand dps
Off hand: Offhand dps (will be 0 for 2 handers)

For the 2 hander with self buffs and 900 str
Attack: Weapon dmg + str*1.2 + 200  = 1015-1040
Off hand: 0

For the 2x one handers
Attack: Weapon dmg + 0.66*str+0.66flat dmg =574-594         
Offhand: 0.5 wpn dmg + 0.33str+0.33 flat dmg = 281-301
Total dmg :  855-895

ill make 2 replys.

1) You were looking at just the attack of your main hand when you look at atk.  There is a second one titled off hand.  You can add up Attack + Offhand and get a general idea of how the two hander compares to the 2x one handers.

i do hope to repeat my parses next weekend with out the +10% acc griff neck and without the 13% accuracy blade staff. 

I have the strange feeling that they arent doing much of anything.

FYI my parses was from 3 hours in nn and 6 hours in RI at the domo camp.  I seperated the logs into 2 files in game via restarting the log.   Ill probably just do RI next weekend for a few reasons 1st being i can only play weekends outside of raids, 2nd being NN was just to get pharoh parts and spawn him.  RI was a pure out farm and kill as many as you can type things.

For those wondering.  Pharoh has ~850k hp, and fungal abomination has ~500k.   Confirmed via 3 parses of each 2 with me in group 1 with me out of group.

Well im looking at my logs of over 1000 fights and my hit/miss ratio on hammer fist is about 85% hit which is pretty much the same as all of my other attacks.  Which is what lead me to believe that the -100% avoidance debuff wasnt working, otherwise that 85% would be higher (and much closer to 95%+).

Stance

Probably the most controversial, as such i will keep it simple and just state my opinions.


Dragon:
Def:  The fire/ice rune is fantastic, but the ac is worthless since it doesnt scale based on armor.  Additionally i personally feel that dragon suffer a little due to no additional dodge/parry in comparison to harmonious and drunken.  Although with the rune as nice as it is, I would personally settle for a % based ac gain instead of the current flat ac gain.

Mid:  The hp regen is too low, with 6k buffless hp and 11k raid buffed hp, 72 hp/3 sec  is really minor.  I think a % based heal would be the best.  2% hp every 3 sec in combat and 5% every 3 sec out of combat.

Offensive:  Could use a few tweaks,
1) lose the mitigation debuff, no reason for a monk to sit at 0% mit at 50, specially if we arent going to be more dps then sorcs. 
2) Increase the proc rate of the storm lightning (it says 15% but i average 1-2 per 2 minute fight with over 100 attacks.   Also change the proc to melee dmg instead of arcane so we dont heal mobs with our offensive stance
3)  The +% damage could use to be slightly higher


Harmonious
Defensive:  At 50, this is the most over powered stance.  8% dodge/parry with an endurance cost reduction that stacks with everything makes it so the majority of harmonious attacks cost 2-5 endurance.   Im okay with it staying as is, as long as drunken monks get some love on their defensive stance.

Mid:  This needs to be closer to the disciple jin regen of 4 per 3 seconds.   As is its very very low and not useful.

Offensive:  The offensive stance is currently an anti offensive stance 40% increased endurance cost is entirely to much for 30% crit.  Most monks at 50 wont notice to much of a difference with the 30% crit but they will notice the 40% endurance cost.  Currently i find it more efficent to dps in the defensive stance  and never run out of endurance.   I would say cut the penalty in half to 20%. 


Drunken
Defensive:  9% dodge/parry and a small damage shield.  Not terrible, but for the tank monk this should be tweaked slightly.  This should have a +agro modifier on it (not the middle stance) and the parry/dodge should be 2-4% higher (11-13% dodge/parry) So there is a clear cut defensive tank monk. 

Mid:  Refresh haste and + agro.   I think the % agro gain should go on the deffensive stance.  Thats about the only change id suggest, other then that this is the only mid stance that doesnt need to be improved.

Offensive:  Fine, if not a little to much dmg at 50.  This +dmg on this stance scaled very nice from 15 to 50, (think it was 12, 17, 22% dmg) while the dragons offensive stance starts out high and never goes up much (20,22, 24).  You end up in a dilemma where the drunken stance is only 2% less dmg and it got more powerful as it leveled while dragons started with an edge and lost it very quickly.

Drunken monk bugs/issues

     
Jeering Kick 4 This used to be the prime taunt and agro key for drunken monks to tank with.  However with apw release it was made useless.  2 hits vs 30 sec recast makes this skill useless for a tank, i would suggest 5-7 hits to match other tanks
         
Foolhardy swager 3 :  This skill is all around confusing.  The description needs to be changed to better match the actual use of the skill.  In addition, as i understand it, this is supposed to be an ae taunt FOR the monk.  however i can ae non stop and use this attack and still lose agro to the ae mobs.  +14% agro should be huge on a main target, and i just dont notice it.
                       
Errant Strikes: Slightly buggy and still on occasion will no add the buff when you press it.  I understand it requires your defensive target to have agro, and i think the problem arises, probably from lag in the ui in who has agro at the time you press it.

Magnificent Drunken Stagger: Would be nice if it was 20 second

Slap Hands  The damage color is still funky, the out going counter attack shows up as red, as if its hitting me (its not)  Also on occasion people report that slap hands will only work on the offensive target (cant confirm, or reproduce it)

Harmonious monk bugs/issues

* Bug When I play a card in a parlay, my harmonious body stance is toggeled off.  Doesn't happen for legendary tiger stance (or immortal crane, I think).

           
Eagle Claw 4   Awesome debuff, could probably use to be melee + dmg, since on raids there is no point in pressing this if a warrior is debuffing mit.

Deadly adder hand 5   Awesome debuff again, stacks well.  I would just say that melee dots dmg blow.  4k dmg over 32 seconds is real low.  The average auto attack at 50 with raid buffs is over 2k  which translates to 2 seconds to do more dmg then this attack does.  I would shoot for 1-2k a tic (3 sec)  as a standard for melee dot dmg.
     
Withering Palm Another great debuff, jin cost is too high and duration should be upped to 5 min so its less of a chore.
     
Steal the wind 3: An okay debuff, but the duration needs to be 2-5 minutes on the mob and 2-5 minutes on the monk.  Also either this recast needs to be put at 1 minute or the drunken/dragons defensive finisher needs to be instant recast.
           
Wave hands in the clouds 3:  Recast is slightly long, and the duration slightly short;  only slightly minor tweaks would be great


*With all of harmonious debuffs and diamond body, as well as find the center, harmonious monks are by far the solo choice.   They have the greatest survivability, but fall drastically shy of usefull dps in a raid since most of their attacks are low dmg or long dots with low dmg.

Dragon monk bugs/Issues
Let me start out by prefacing, that this is meant to be the damage king of the 3 styles of monks.  Of which it falls shy for several obvious reasons.  The first of which is the over abundance of exceptionally weak ae's and melee dots that don't scale well at all.  The other big factor is the stances, stances will all be together at the bottom.

Aspect of the spirit dragon:  Was decent back in the day, but now that endurance regeneration has been fixed, we have a 20-30 sec invisibility instead of a 5-10minute invisibility.  I would suggest a 2 end/ sec or changing it from 10 / sec to 10 a tic (3 sec). 

Dragon breath: Pathetic dmg.  10 jin cost for a 2k frontal ae on a 4 minute timer?  This was a sick joke.  It needs to be something along the lines of melee + 2k ae dmg, half the jin cost, and a large frontal cone.  It also needs to be an instant reuse, since it costs jin.

Dragon Rakes its claws: The dragon specific ae attack.  It does a a whole 100 dmg more then the regular ae, and has a frontal only ae range.   I would suggest making it 360 degrees, and a bit more then 100 dmg higher (400 ideally).  If i have to pick, i use the regular monk ae simply because its 360 degrees and i dont lose more then 100 dmg.

Dragon Sweeps its tail: 300 dmg (ae) and a 3 sec stun... on a 1 minute timer.  I mean seriously, again with the low dmg, high recast skills.  This should be melee +300 dmg  minimum, not to mention the 3 sec stun does little to nothing to help with aeing.

Feet of the fire dragon:  Low low low dmg, 2k dmg over 16 seconds?   1 crescent kick does 1k dmg every 8 seconds.  This is a great example of a melee based dot that does almost no dmg.  Again this would need to be something like melee + 200 every tick for it to be useful.  ( would shoot for 2-3k a tic of dmg just so it is greater then auto attack)

Sun dragons corona:  Again, another bad joke, 6 jin for a 10 minute buff that adds a damage shield and fire resist.  Few suggestions here.  1) make it 1 hr duration, 2) remove the damage shield and change it to something that adds direct dmg (non ae).  There are TONS of suggestions of how this could be made into a better single target dmg buff.

Sundering Dragon Claw: 4k dmg over 5 seconds.  Okay this is more in line with what a melee dot should be like.  If you follow this through to 15 seconds, it would do 12k dmg, which is where feet of the fire dragon should be, overall this skill is fine though, just mentioning it to have an example of a good melee dot.

******* Bug: Switching from dragon to storm dragon cancels secrets and forces you to toggle them off then back on

**** Additionally, a short 10-15 sec invulnerability would be great so dragon can be as efficient at pulling as drunken/harmonious

So taking some time this weekend to switch to all 3 styles and update the bug list... again.

General Monk Bugs/Issues


* Bug: The ability to split pull using FD has mysteriously been removed. (Bug acknowledged by Talisker and the pause prior to moving back to spawn spot will be reintroduced)

* Bug: Ranged attacks do not agro on misses (bug or intentional?)
* Bug: Storm stride doesnt teleport you behind the enemy if the enemy is near a wall.


*Bug: secret of flame/ice remove all attack animations and make us appear to only jab
*Issue: secret of transcendence is worthless, now that secret of ice and fire last forever, there is no point in a 1 minute secret that only adds 5% dmg.  Suggestion: Make secret of transcendence like fire/ice and leave it on till toggled off.

*issue: Goading slap gives very little hate for how hard we hit, +1600 hate (or 2400 for sup version) means very little when we hit for 4-10k every attack

*issue: wanning palm only works on defensive targets IF they have agro, so basically we can only debuff tanks agro.  It would be nice if we could use this on any defensive target and help them keep their agro down (like on a sorc)

* Bug: Jin Surge is used up even if you miss.
*Suggestion: Make jin surge only used on skills (not auto attack), and make increasing ranks add hits (aka rank 2 = next 2 skills, rank 5 = next 5 skills)

*Bug: Aums that teach skills (E.G. Aum of the roaring dragon) dont always work, and occasionally it takes 2-3 tries to learn each skill
*ssue: Aums that teach skills take way to much jin and if you change styles relearning all the skills takes forever
*Issue: Switching styles is a major pita, id appreciate something shorter like the shm form switch

*Bug: Aum liat loses the speed portion of the buff on loging/chunking occasionally.

*Issue: reed in the wind had its level lowered, but the mobs you learn it from are the same level, so the point of lowering its level was negated by the fact you have to be the same level as before to learn it

*Issue: Fist of celerity (and errant strike) dont work on all attacks, there are about 30% of the attacks we have it wont work on.

*Issue: Pushing hands is ridiculously weak, it takes 8 of our stance pushes to = 1 from a ranger or disciple... not to mention ours costs 40 endurance to cast.

******Issue: Also, another great suggestion was to give monks a full endurance regen.  Something like +100 endurance, on a 2 minute timer.  Something like 2-3 jin cost (cant be to high, if we are out of endurance we likely cant build up jin)

******* Issue: Three finger strikes avoidance debuff doesnt do much on lvl 51+ mobs, seems to be the same chance to hit/miss, it also needs its duration uped to 8 seconds

*******Issue: the attack that garuntes a crit for all 3 forms (4 jin 5 min recast) is a complete waste.  The jin cost is too high, the recast is WAY WAY to long, and the overall dmg of the skill is too low (from 0 to 400) ,  The point of the skill is to open finishers, but sadly this skill isnt worth pressing.  I would suggest a 1 min reuse and 2 jin cost.

*******Issue: Attacks that open finishers with increased crit rate (6 jin 2 min reacst) is another wasted skill because of its high jin/long recast.  Again 3 jin 1 min recast would be more appreiate, specially considering it does no damage for drunken.

*****Issue: ae finisher line: if you kill a mob you can no longer use the remaining hit(s) on the other mobs that the previous ae hit. (this is just a pet peeve, id love for the ae finisher line to be better)

its simply because the +200 damage with a 10% dmg modifier buff (and any gear with a modifier) is adding to the dmg.

Theres a lot of factors but that confirms 1 thing atleast, the flat damage fix taliksar described was not put in, other wise the ONlY difference on ashen hand would be 200, the fact its still being modified means either the fix isnt in yet, or they choose to fix it a different way