I agree.

I have no problems with fixing exploits, but at the same time, I at least would expect something like this.

As a monk, at level 15, I pick my style.. it's a big time important decision and your style is kind of your path to a new identity.. it's a big deal.  I think it's just flat out unacceptable that when i finish that quest, chose dragon monk and look at my 3 stances I find that one does not even work at all.. 100% broken and it's been that way since before launch.

Now, I'd at least like to see a patch where they fix it.. .After a month of patches.. a friggin month with every patch containing at least 75-100 class specific fixes to not see much except for some very minor tweaks that are really insignificant...

That is a kick in the face. 

My question is why? and no answer

If they said.. hey monks, we realize that some stances are broken and some are not efficient, so we are evaluating all classes and working on a total revamp of your style system to provide a good balance of dps and utility...

If I heard something like that, I'd be like, cool. that sounds fair. Thank you. and I'd go on playing my monk and I'd be excited for that change to come even if its months from now.

People are voicing their concerns.. that is not whining.

I am happy that you are not struggling with your monk, but please don't be so naive to think that everyone here is over 30, has FD2/nerve strike, is a harm monk with a huge crit rate, plays with a bard and never solo's.  I'm just saying for you in your situation, you are able to deal with our shortcomings better than most, but you are really the minority.

And I wouldn't be sitting all fat and sassy on your crit rate...when you say honestly do you think a 70% evasion wasn't going to be nerfed?.. i say to you honestly do you really think Sigil is going to allow anyone to get up to 80% crit rate? 

At some point, I really believe the are going to make it so no one crits that much buffs or no buffs.  The way to make a monk viable dps is not through 80% crit rates, its by fixing their abilities. They aren't going to make it so harms get nice debuffs, some defense and the best dps.  The concept is dragon monk greater dps than harm but gets no group spells.  It's that simple, so if you are doing ranger dps with your harm monk.. don't rely on for much longer.

i think what Leishiu was saying is that to do a lot of dps, harmonious monk tiger stance is the best way to go... it gives you a huge boost in crit rate up around 50% and much more if you use a bard.  I take it that it's probably less effective when you solo.  But if you are in group your finishers will open up left and right allow you big damage for low endurance.

So basically a harmonious monk is going to way out damage a dragon monk in a group situation, bring more utility with the debuff's they get and have a little better defense stance for pulling.. Oh and they can regen jin out of combat, which usually can help keep up jin surge and some ashen hands.

In other words, switch to harm monk and forget dragon and drunk exist for the time being.  Then you can hang a little better with your peers.

Now we are starting to see the light....

I wondered why there were those 1 or 2 out of 100 that would call us whiner and tell us to shut up.. you were using an exploit to do so much more damage while us dragons were friggin meditating between fights. 

Welcome to the real world of the Vanguard Monk!!!

Now get in line and complain about how we stink.

Yeah.. it's tough to say that we are ok dps because you are generating a ton more damage by grouping with a bard and you are a harm monk.  I'd ask politely if you could go self buffed and fight a few even con 2-dots for a lttle bit and tell us how much dps you do in comparison and how many crits you get off in a fight.

I really didn't take into consideration the harmonious monks ability to jack up their crit rate that high. IMO, this is a huge advantage and would definitely put a harm monk well past dragon monk dps.  I would also worry that this is the type of thing that gets the nerf going because harms aren't' suppose to be outdamaging dragon monks.  (however, it may be the case that the dev's are fine with it as long as it's only when playing with a bard).

People are just trying to get down to the bottom of what the heck is going on.  Why is it that 100 monks claim our dps stinks and the recent poll of who is the least desirable class has monks in the lead.. yet some monks come  on here claiming to do insane amounts of damage.  It's not that we don't believe you, but maybe need enlightened.  Maybe you have the silver chalice of monkly uberness equipped that is doing something we aren't anticipating. who knows.

 

I'd also like to add that we have a counter called Stinging Backfist... which opens up upon a successful dodge.

Through the teens this spell has a 27 endurance cost but the damage it provides is less than Boundless Fist.  Since Boundless fist is an instant refresh/recast for 20 endurance and does more damage, it makes stinging backfist useless.

Now this may change when it upgrades... but I don't think so.

It's nice to get an official statement from Sigil and a class lead.. thank you.

To my knowledge there isn't one.

At least no one here, on tentonhammer or silky venom have claimed to be one or even make a guess who it is.  There were a couple of guys in beta that were informative, but someone posted on the other boards that those guys are not working on monks anymore.

During beta Sigil's communication with the community was outstanding and since launch it's been disappointing.

I do believe this is a level 46 ability for dragon monks.

It's definitely not a replacement for the hp regen that doesn't work.. that's still the broken pos it's always been.

Cool.. I also realized the exploit damage you get from exploiting a vulnerability is not a crit per say, so I don't think it actually will cause the finisher to open up... I believe I am wrong about that. I think it has to be an actual random crit. 

I think the difference in crescent kick and boundless fist will probably change at various levels. so at 20/28 when those abilities upgrade they might be better for a few levels.  When you upgrade crescent kick then that one will be more valuable until you get your next boundless fist then that one might be better for a bit.  At least that's what I am guessing.

Jin surge might be a good spell if you were war, monk, rogue, rogue, psi, cleric or something where you have 4 people at least doing melee damage.  Jin surge might be one of those nice abilities in a dps raid group full of offensive fighters and bards all buffed up where we can give 6 high damage dealers some extra damage.  At least that's the type of utility we can hope for, which would help us be more valuable in a raid.

The secrets can be more beneficial than ashen hand, but you can use ashen hand to set up "vulnerable"
Same for iron hand, but I think again it depends on how much time you can stay in combat. 

Although I tend to use the boundless/six dragons combo a lot more with ashen hand.. it may be totally situational, depend on party makeup, level and maybe other factors. 

Actually crescent kick might not be as bad as I thought.. at least on the ratio, I think it's a little less damage, but less endurance.. longer reset timer.. it makes more sense to use more often for a harm or drunk monk since you guys don't get 6 dragon strikes, which can take advantage of the boundless fist vulnerability.   For any monk it appears its a worthy ability if someone in your group can exploit shaken.

Hey fellow dragon monks,

After just watching my combat numbers.. no parsing, it feels like the best overall bang for the buck when it comes to endurance and jin is doing this:

1.  Hit boundless fist for 20 endurance and damage, which causes enraged vulnerability, possibly opens finisher
2. Hit six dragons strike for 28 endurance and damage, which exploits enraged and causes a auto crit.
3.  use ashen hand to possibly open finisher or jin surge if in group, since jin surge seems to give better overall damage to the mob.
4.  Always use a finisher if it is up.

This seems kind of simple, but in I find that that since boundless and six dragons are both quick refresh and give 1 jin, with 48 endurance the total damage from both of those plus the auto crit from six dragons purty much out does all our other spells such as crescent kick or feet of the fire dragon. 

Also since ashen hand does decent damage and can open up a finisher, I find it much more efficient use of jin over time than iron hand or secrets abilities, especially if you ever have much time between pulls.

the combo of swaying step to make 1 dodge and stinging backfist as a counter.. is a waste of endurance.  I have yet to figure out how to use whirling storm.. the endurance cost being so high.

Even with crescent kick giving 1 extra jin the damage per endurance is horrible.. unless someone in the group can exploit shaken.

---------

I find that this basically renders a ton of our abilities useless or very rarely used... crescent kick, iron hand, secrets, swaying step, stinging backfist.  Add goading slap and waning palm in the rarely used category as well.   That's 8 total abiltiies that are really more inefficient to use or only in rare occassion, such as the mob has 5%life left and I use cresent kick to make the kill so i get the 2 jin.

I am still learning the class, but that's what I am seeing. Does anyone have better tactics?  Or am i wrong about what I am seeing damage to endurance wise?

Sorry Soluss, I wasn't replying directly to you at all... it was just a reply in general to those that keep claiming that there is nothing wrong with monks and claiming that we shouldn't care how we compare to other classes. 

They say we are just whining and it doesn't matter what other classes do.
They make it sound like we are somehow just wanting to get the dev's to beef us up so we can swing our e-peen.
They are making it like we are complaining only because other classes can solo better than us... then telling us to re-roll to another class that solo's well.

My contention is that it does matter how we perform compared to other classes and its an important part of a complex game for those players that intend on taking part of the challenges of difficult dungeons and raid encounters. 

When anyone brings up soloing, we are not saying that we don't solo well because of how the monk is structured. .we don't solo well because we have no defensive skills and marginal dps..which is the same thing that causes us to be poor in groups or raids.   

A few people here have offended my integrity with their overused cliche's like "go find another class"  and they try to paint a picture that I am some uniformed punk that watches kung fu movies and just wants to pwn in VG and complain that I'm not uber enough. 

That is not the case at all.  I enjoy playing MMO's.. I use to be a hardcore raider in EQ, but  not these days... I do hope to raid 2 or 3 nights a week in the future.  I started this game with a guild, with grouping and raiding in mind. 

I was in beta for several months... I played a lot of classes to the 20's:  DK, warrior, blood mage, rogue, monk, necro.. I knew exactly what a monk could do at release and I thought I knew for the most part what direction they were taking them.  I started an orc monk first day of pre-release knowing it wasn't the best solo class.. at the time knowing that the martok monk style quest was bugged, knowing dragon stance was still bugged and knowing my orc would need a ton of faction work...

Basically.. I didn't start this class looking for the easy road or thinking I had some kind overpowered solo machine.  Monks were never overpowered, that is why they are very unpopular class compared to say the ranger. 

I started this class to be valuable high dps offensive fighter that would be a benefit any group.  That's all I ask for.  And right now that is not the case.  I don't want to re-roll.. I love the concept of the class and I was even OK with it at launch when we were a little underpowered... unfortunately for some reason they hit us hard and it makes no sense when you look at what they are doing with other classes. 

Yeah maybe I am ranting and complaining.. I'm just totally disappointed and I really dont' want to re-roll because this class has so much potential to be exactly what I am looking for.

Here's something I want to show you.. it's called the gimpiness of rangers. 

For those that never played EQ.. the Ranger was a crazy class.  It was insanely overpowered at release.. everyone played a ranger.  They could almost tank as well as warriors, had great damage and even the light heals.  They finally had to do something and totally took away their defense.  After that rangers had no agro wipe, so it was common for rangers to get agro and just die right there where rogues could evade and monks could FD to loose agro.  A lot of rangers couldn't adapt and for a long time it was extremely common to see the world of EQ covered with ranger corpses.. even long after this rangers didn't do the dps of rogues and monks and had no real utility.. they were not a wanted class...

This was from EQ, originally happening over 5 years ago... yet their gimpedness is so legendary it still lives today.

http://forums.vanguardsoh.com/showthread.php?threadid=28043

Do you want to be the vanguard version of the ranger?

Just to take what Vaz says a step further:

Being balanced and having value is important to a lot of people and that has nothing to do with having an e-peen.

It has everything to do with being able to contribute to a group or raid.  Especially a raid where there is a 24 man limit.  To beat challenging mobs, you need the best players, playing well as a team and contributing highly.  If the guild needs dps and I'm getting outdps'd by the healer.. i will be replaced by a ranger. it's that simple.

I'm not even a hardcore raider, just someone that enjoys raiding and likes to raid 2 or 3 times a week.  In a hardcore 6 nights a week mandatory attendance guild.. they would purty much make you change class. I've seen rangers in EQ go through that gimp stage and seen guilds actually ask rangers to re-roll to rogues because they were more valuable.

What happens if I get a job at night and now have to find a late night guild... it will stink when you go to their app forum and see, recruiting open only for healers, tanks and rangers..  Sorry we are not accepting monks at this time.

My point is that it's really not about trying to impress anyone.  We aren't really competing with anyone, we are teaming with people.. to achieve a goal.   Some people might think we are taking it too seriously, but this a game like anything else and people like me take it somewhat serious... the same way I play baseball, to win.. if that means bunting for the team I do that.  All i want to do is get up to plate and have my shot to help the team.. right now I can do that but I feel like I'm bringing a broken wooden bat while everyone else is using an aluminum bat.