Yeah Ive always felt that "Dragons Rage" should have also been lowered to a 2 minute timer in the same patch that lowered "Cloud Dragon's Ruse" to 2 minutes- and it was a more powerful ability anyways lol; anyone else remember that? Given its poor damage and Jin Cost, reguardless of the level you get it, its an underpowered ability imo, and should have its timer reduced to match "Cloud Dragon's Ruse" because of that alone.

Cloud Dragon's Ruse Rank 2 and 3, should have upgraded stun components to the "fient" portion of the attack, for Rank 2 it needs to be a 2 second stun, for rank 3 it needs to be a 3 second stun. This matches Disciples "Fient" ability stun duration progression.

And Crescent Kick needs to state that it increases critical hit rate like other classes abilities do. For example, Rangers "Fleet Blade" states in its description how much of a critical hit bonus the attack has (and how much its increased ranks do), why doesnt ours? This goes for ALL classes with wierd undocumented high critical hit rate abilities- like Clerics "Strike Down". We all know these abilities critical hit more often, so they should say it in the description :p.

I like that idea also Fujitsu, makes sense they would each purge different types of effects they would naturally be resistant to. And agree 30 percent would be crazy nice heh, but it would probably be too much, what I think they should do is give Drunken's tanking stance a bit of a boost to parry/dodge (like 2-3 percent to each) on top of these additions and it would be perfect. Good stuff.

Couple of random thoughts heh, first, Aum Liat- is there any chance this might have its endurance penalty removed? It always seemed kind of out of place to have a penalty on *this Aum* when the others are pretty much wholely beneficial no?

Secondly out of curiousity is there any plans to do more Style specific stance tweaking? It would make sense to me for example, that Dragon Monks, taking usually the most punishment of the three styles when they are taking damage have a superior health regeneration stance- so while a Dragon Monk may end a fight at around 30 percent health where the other Monk types are around 70 percent or so, at least the Dragon would have the ability to get back on his feet a little quicker. I for one also wouldnt mind seeing a little boost to the Crit Rate mainly, and DPS bonus secondarily on Legendary Storm Dragon.

And thirdly, Drunken really could use a little bit of a boost defensively on its main tanking stance, it should stand out as a quasi-tank/offtank among the offensive fighters. Around 2-3 percent greater parry/dodge would be perfect imo. Just some thoughts, cheers~

Just giving some of MY reasoning behind these resist spreads and special properties-

Dragon Style is the more mystical oriented of all three styles and with the elemental nature of dragons it makes sense that the Dragon Style would be more inclined to be naturally resistant to elemental forces themselves. The idea of a Spell Damage Focus for the style is also a "mystical" type of special benefit, granted from their styles affinity to Dragons; this would naturally convey benefits to the more supernatural abilities of the Monk- Secret of Fire, Ice, Transcendance, Dragon's Breath, and Sun Dragon's Corona.

Drunken Style is the most evasive, and usually inebriated of the three Monk types. Their unique training, and outlook would naturally grant them resistance to the influance of the Divine or Mind altering magic due to their superior will power. The same training (or drinking) would also grant them an unnaturally high tolerance to pain thus the damage rune and stun resistance.

Harmonious Style is naturally the more balanced of all three styles, emphasizing harmony in all things; mental, physical, and metaphysical. Due to such training their bodies are stronger then natural and their minds are an impenetrable fortress. Because of this- Poison, Disease, Mind altering magic and other mystical effects as well as even sword or fist have a hard time getting past their defenses.

I liked the idea of the spell damage focus as well if it works on the abilities it would make sense for, but I would like to see something like that applied to a passive type ability which I had an idea about in this thread:

http://www.vanguardmonks.com/option,com_smf/Itemid,27/topic,885.msg6643/

As for Sun Dragon's Corona, Im actually fond of the idea of it being changed to a pulsed PBAoE similier to a Clerics, since you could use this as an additional means of DPS while doing your reguler routine; and better still its an additional means of DPS without having to be taking damage. For those unfamilier with how it works on Clerics, basicly you cast it and it puts up the buff then every "pulse" will inflict roughly 300-400 damage to *anything* standing within 5 or so meters of the Cleric. If this were to be changed to a PBAoE like that with the fire resistance component intact and a 60 second duration it would be great. I would remove the DS entirely and place it on a passive type ability for Dragon Style.

I like the change they are doing with Harmonious Styles "Diamond Body", but I think this should be applied across all styles as well to show there is parity in the forms but they are good in different situations. Someone mentioned in another thread they felt Monks should obtain some form of innate resistances at some point and I agree, this would be something good to tack onto Passive style abilities around 30. IF I were a developer I would like to see Passive abilities along these lines for the three Styles:

Ascendant Dragon's Aura [Dragon Style] Level 30
100 Fire
100 Cold
50 Arcane
30% Spell Damage Focus (Dragon Breath/Secrets)
Permanant Damage Shield (Scales 30+)

Undaunted Drunken Resolve [Drunken Style] Level 30
100 Spiritual
100 Mental
50 Arcane
30% Stun Resistance
Permanant Damage Rune (Scales 30+)

Diamond Body [Harmonious Style] Level 30
100 Physical
100 Mental
50 Arcane
30% Base AC Bonus
Permanent Disease/Poison/Curse Purge (Scales 30+)

In reguards to all of the above- about freaking time!!! Some much needed adjustments/fixes for sure.

The biggest mistake they made with Clerics in the recent patch was taking away the reuse timer from Rout and Bloodhammer. I gotta be honest, as a 41 War Cleric (my alternate) I feel like I can out damage my 45 Dragon Monk; but I can clearly place the blame solely on the fact they removed the reuse timers from Rout and Bloodhammer (an attack which is basicly like Rout but more damage, with followup finishers). Rout formerly was a 300 percent finisher, with a 1 minute reuse, before the Affinity patch that was Clerics main source of extra damage, which honestly wasnt exactly anything to write home about. Most never even paid mind to Cleric DPS. With War Affinity Clerics gained a 400 percent finisher called Bloodhammer which grants two Advanced Finishers to it; Hammer of Carnage, and Truncheon of Ghlann. It is alot like a Bard's Hewing the Mountain/Cleave the Mountain chain which is also a 400 percent finisher series with no reuse.

At the same time they removed Rout's reuse timer, so if you have a good DEX score you can usually get off several Routs in the time you use to only be able to land a single strike. Since they had just removed Routs timer, and Bloodhammer was basicly an advanced Rout (once you have Bloodhammer, there is no point to waste Rout as a finisher as Bloodhammer is superior- making Rout a redundent attack) it was given a zero reuse timer as well. There in lies the problem. If they added a reuse timer back to Rout and Bloodhammer, somewhere around 30 seconds for Rout and about 30 Second or 1 Minute on Bloodhammer you wouldnt be seeing stories like this since the DPS would be forceably controled by the reuse timer. The above information is correct also, War Clerics who are geared to damage dealing (Statisticly, and Equipment wise) lose alot of healing potential due to lack of Vitality, Wisdom, and Focus gear which results in smaller heals and lower energy pools; so the DPS path shouldnt be nerfed into being an invalid choice for those Clerics but it does need tuning. For what is effectively, an "Offensive Healer" they wouldnt be so out of line if they had the reuses reapplied to the listed skills, not anymore so than Bloodmages, Phoenix Shamans, etc. That said, Monks need a serious DPS revamp, compared to other Offensive Fighters, Defensive Fighters, Offensive Casters, and even some Healers they just are not performing.. Ive played a Monk from Beta > Live and honestly the only people around still playing Monks that I know (myself included) do it cause they love the idea of the Class, the current system just isnt doing them justice though- imho.

Heya Quinn, just thought Id give you the heads up, theres a discussion going on the new "official vanguard forums" regarding the idea of Class Leads (nothing official Ive seen). Might want to just voice that your still around so if they are looking for ya to keep carrying the torch (so to speak) - that you would be able to. I think you have done a grand job thus far and am hoping they continue with the Class Leads (ala EQ1). Cheers.

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=9116

My thoughts exactly Baba, Im an EQ1/2 vet, and I must admit the EQ2 Team made one of the most impressive turn arounds Id ever seen with EQ2. When I left EQ2 for VG the game was seriously in a much better state then it ever was when it originally launched. If they can help to do the same with VG, thanks to the manpower and funding we'll all be much better off in the long run.

Recent statements by Nino:



Source:
http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/28627-soe-own-vg-sigil-fires-employees-4.html#post731058

This was in response to a thread on the Fires of Heaven site regarding the recent firings. Teclisen later responded in same thread with:


Unfortunately I think its beyond speculation now, and pretty much can be accepted as fact due to these statements. If it actually unfolded like that it is likely due to Sony buying out Vanguard, Sigil now without a product lets go of a bunch of employees, most of which are then hired on as the new development team on Vanguard, some folks actually end up losing their jobs but most people are retained along with new developers from Sony to work on Vanguard's continued development. Least thats how it looks to me, supposing it is true, an official statement should be surfacing soon.

Ive seen this also and all I can say is "Ouch" for the state of Vanguard, I feel for the Sigil members who got the axe but hopefully in the long run though this will turn out to be a positive for the game as things get restructured internally. If this wasnt true I would think a post in the contrary would of been made by someone at Sigil by now, so I can only assume that this is in fact true. Anyone else notice daily restarts havent been occuring lately also? In any case I wouldnt expect any monk fixes to be coming very soon now that everything in the game is likely to be in a state of flux.

I have both a 45 Monk (Dragon Style), and a 32 Cleric (War Affinity). Speaking purely from the point of view of the War path, they get one new finisher line over other clerics, and a counter attack. Also worth mentioning is the fact that affinities were something originally intended for Clerics much like Patrons are for Shamans but they never made it into the game before Beta ended. Some of the more recent changes to the Class which make it seem alot tougher, is the fact they removed Rout's 1 Minute reuse timer (Clerics old big finisher attack), and added one smaller DoT based attack line and one small stun based attack (which doesnt always work and was made to help them deal with healing mobs). I dont quite feel like I can out damage similier geared Monks yet, but it does feel like I do pretty competitve damage with other DPS based healers (Blood Mage, Phoenix Shaman, Death Affinity Cleric). What probably needs tuning with Clerics in general is the stance swaping- Stance Cool Down could use a longer duration, forcing you to choose wisely which stance you are in with the given moment. With a longer cool down you cant just swap and heal, then swap back. If you look at the stance itself it is balanced, its just the implementation that doesnt quite feel right.

And as stated by Soluss it does indeed have a very large heal penalty, Cleric large slow casting direct heal goes from 2,400 to 550 in war affinity stance, your quick patch heal goes from 1020 to around 250, so you wont be healing in that style... its purely for damage output as a secondary healer. The extra melee prowess of the War path is the whole point of taking that style, its much like the Phoenix Patron in it is based on damage output, and if your not a heavy dex based Cleric you wont be landing many criticals thusly gaining the finishers which allow you to maintain a steady flow of damage.

Aside from that the only thing that makes me go "Hmm" about the War Affinity is the fact that their big finisher has no reuse timer, and neither does Rout as of the last patch, Blood Hammer is clearly superior so why would you ever use the old finisher when you have a better one you can use as much as you want? A 30 second reuse timer on Blood Hammer finisher for War Clerics would make sense in that respect otherwise Rout is redundent and pointless. Thats my take on it, hope this sheds some light on the War Affinity a bit.

Yes... very much so. For the first time since Beta Im actually considering changing classes or simply changing games since I have pretty much exhausted my patience and understanding at this point. The positives from this patch:

*Ignore Pain - Heals for a much more respectable amount

*Secret of Celerity - An excellent change, this is one of our most powerful abilities, the reduced timer makes this ability feel much more "final" and the only thing I would change about this if I had the chance would be removing it from the global refresh as our other secrets are.

*Finisher Reuse - The unified 1 minute reuse on finisher timers makes AE's more useful as well as making the Gouging Dragonclaw/Sundering Dragonclaw Dragon Style finishing line a nice secondary means of DPS to the Thousand Fists line.

*Swaying Step - A great change! If this ability was useable while attacking it would make it all the more useful, but one cant complain with a timer removal.

The negatives from this patch, or as I like to call them "The changes that were almost cool":

*Palm Explodes the Heart - It was almost a step in the right direction with this line by gaining a reuse and a damage increase, unfortunately they didnt actually increase the damage enough to justify the timer. With a high level requirement and long reuse there has to be a reason to use this line over other finishers. This ability line should be dealing 6k to 8k BEFORE crits. It would be nice if each step in the line built 2 Jin as well, making it useful for building Jin every 5 minutes as well as dealing damage. This technique should be the epitome of everything a Monk has learned as a martial artist up to level 50, its something you SHOULD look forward to.

*Iron Hand - This ability increases your damage by a respectable amount and its one of the first techniques you learn as a Monk, and the recent change to duration make the ability less tedious to maintain. I still feel a 10 minute timer wouldve been more inline with the ability, Dragon Styles other Jin supplied buff "Sun Dragon's Corona" is on a 10 minute duration as well with a similier cost.

*Dragon Breath - A nice alternative to a Monk's reguler AE arsenal, since this one is based purely on Jin. The damage boost was definately needed and a positive change, but the ability still remains tied to a 10 minute reuse timer! With a 8 Jin cost to limit its use, this ability should have been moved down to a 30 second to 1 minute timer, allowing Dragon Master monks to supplement their reguler AEs which drain endurance with the Jin based one further solidifying their role as the AE style.

*Dragon Rakes Its Claws - This should be the defining AE of the Dragon Style, the increase in damage while respectable is not enough to make it as useful as the Whirling Storm AE all monks recieve. The increased endurance cost is managable, but the damage on this line should be increased a little bit more. The fact that it is a restricted AE and the Dragon Styles role should justify the increase.

*Cloud Dragon's Ruse - The old reuse of five minutes has been reduced making this ability available more often. But the ability itself is somewhat weak reguardless. The stun duration should be moved to a flat 5 seconds and the chance of a critical hit on the next special attack should be moved to 100 percent (from 30). That would easily justify a 2 minute timer and its weak damage, as you could open a very hard hitting chain with it.

*Dragon's Rage - Completely untouched by today's patch despite being a weak ability that functions much like the changed "Cloud Dragon's Ruse". This ability deals minor damage, but is useful because it will always critical, thus opening up chains, unfortunately that is pretty much the exact same thing that Cloud Dragon's Ruse does, yet this ability was not changed. This ability should of recieved a slight damage increase to make it more competitive in use to Cloud Dragon's Ruse and given a 2 minute timer, like its counterpart.

*Aum Liat - No other Aum that Monk's have are cursed with a penalty as Aum Liat is, it makes no sense. With our nerfed avoidance, this ability should have the endurance penalty removed to make it more in line with other Aum's. As it is, I will just click off the negative portion anytime I use this since the Dodge bonus barely does anything anyways, but the endurance penalty is a kick in the nuts. The Runspeed is always nice however.

*Secret of Fire/Ice - Despite the energy debacle you Devs almost got this one right, the increased duration is great on this line allowing you to keep up one of the two secrets pretty much the course of an entire solo fight, unfortunately you didnt increase the duration quite enough. The duration of the modified line SOULD of been 45 seconds if you were changing the reuse to 90 seconds, so that monks could still chain the Secret of Fire/Ice as they needed.

*Dragon Sweeps Its Tail - A Dragon Style only counter, an AE one at that. This is actually a nice little counter while AEing and your the center of attention because it will stun briefly- unfortunately the 1 minute reuse is quite limiting to its use, 30 seconds would be much more reasonable.

*Jin Surge - Our nice group based buff, this is a great ability, and the reuse is fair enough- unfortunately it is often wasted on autoattacks. This ability should be changed to only effect Special Abilities OR be changed to a 5 to 10 second duration buff which effects ALL attacks while active.

*Defensive Ability - This is a catch all function of the class to me, Monks should have the best general defensive capability of offensive fighters. It doesnt have to be amazing but our two abilities which could help us in that aspect are completely worthless currently. Reed in the Wind has changed for the worse- bigtime. It was overly nerfed and needs to be evaluated, pretty much everyone can agree this wasnt severely overpowering in reguards to other classes solo capability... but it indeed deserved some tuning to avoid abuse. This ability should of been attached to a more reasonable timer, somewhere in the range of 30 seconds so it could not be chained indefinately OR reduced in effectiveness if it were left timerless so it would not be overly effective while trying to stay "dodgey", a 25 point dodge bonus with no timer would of been fine for such a endurance heavy ability I would think. Iron Skin is another ability which should be evaluated at the same time, as it effects our ability to mitgate rather than avoid damage, a 10 minute timer seems a bit steep. This ability should of had its timer reduced to something more useable, a 2 minute reuse would make me entirely happy with this skill.

If all these things could be changed tomorrow or HELL if I knew these things were going to be fixed PERIOD I would be entirely happy with the class, and be more inclined to offer patience even if it took a month. But I havent seen one word from a developer with what they are trying to accomplish with the class. While I can see they are working on things I cant understand how they can make 2 steps forward and 3 steps backward with Monks seemingly every other patch, its getting tiring, and it honestly is feeling like no progress has been made at all when all is said and done.

Hate to be the bearer of more bad news but the "Hotfix", didnt actually fix ALL secrets, test out "Secret of Ice III" to see what I mean, they increased the REUSE to 1 minute and 30 seconds but the duration is still left *untouched* lasting only 20 seconds...

Not to mention the fact that with the new reuse timers the abilities should of been brought to 45 second durations so they could match the functionality of their old durations/reuses.

Oh and Dragon Rage still has the exact same 5 minute reuse as before, despite being pretty much exactly the same as "Cloud Dragon's Ruse", which was brought down to a 2 minute timer... at their core these two abilities have pretty much the same functionality- you click, they crit and start chains. The minor damage these two abilities deal is pretty much exactly the same also. The fact that Ruse stunned supposedly doesnt matter since it really was not noticable anyways. Why Dragon Rage was left on a 5 minute timer when they are effectively the same skill with different Jin costs (Ruse is 2 more than Rage) is completely beyond me...