yes but a much higher percent of +crit than +dmg.  And you can easily get non-APW gear for +crit if you want.  Rings, earings, neck pieces, etc plus normal armor.  I wish they would at least put a really nice monk 2H sword in APW.

I must really be an idiot because I have played a harmonious monk for more than a year and I have yet to find our buffs.  I have never once buffed another player.  Maybe I forgot to train those skills or something.  Someone please tell me where to find all these buffs that Meiyo is referring to.  As for debuffs, they are better than the other 2 styles debuffs but suck in comparison to rogue debuffs who do a hell of a lot more damage than a harmonious monk.

As for DPS, the drunken monk in my guild does more dps often times than the dragon monk.  And they both do more dps than I do.  Maybe I need to switch to a 2-hander or something.

So basically Harmonious monks get screwed over with the APW gear which has a lot of crit% chance.  This does absolutely nothing for us.

So you want to compare damage based on how you molded your character?  If you get your armor made, and put your attribute points into dex and used fists/knuckles or what not, then you would sit at max crit% and would easily out-damage a harmonious monk.  However you have chosen to wear defensive gear and then wonder why you can't outdamage a harmonious monk.  The drunken and dragon styles have much greater potential for DPS than a harmonious monk with the way the gear is in this game.  If +melee damage gear was as easy to come by and prevalent in this game as crit% gear then we would have a discussion.  You can get a crafted bp with like 7% crit chance on it or something crazy like that, but no crafted gear exists with that kind of damage modifier.

Out of curiosity, why wear hp/defensive gear but put no points into dex?  If you are so worried about dying, it would make sense to add points to dex.

Fujitsu,

You posted the crit cap to be 40%.  Are you telling me that with your gear and dex you are not capped?  Your crit chance and my crit chance are both capped at 40%.  The difference is you have +22% or so damage to my self buff of +10%.  Plus you have an extra thousand fists finisher.  If the crit cap is truly 40%, harmonious should lose every time with equal gear.  If we are both capped at 40%, how do I crit more often?

Why does everyone seem to think Harmonious offensive stance is so great?  It is the worst offensive stance in game.  With a 40% crit cap, it is absolutely useless.  There is so much crit gear in the game, any lvl50 can max their crit chance.  However, there is no where near enough +dmg gear for a player to max his melee dmg except for maybe a dragon monk who gets +25% or whatever melee dmg.  I would take dmg over crit any day of the week.  Sure, harmonious is probably the best monk for solo and leveling.  But there is no way we can match the dmg of a drunken or dragon monk, especially in raids.  We just can not make up for the dmg bonuses that those styles receive in offensive stance.  And that doesn't even include the endurance penalty we get for this useless stance.  So go ahead and reduce my crit chance and up my dmg bonus, would make me extremely happy.  For those that think Tiger stance is the best offensive stance at 50, I would really love to see that argument.  Show me some numbers and make me a believer.

I think Tiger stance kind of sucks at lvl50.  With the crit cap at 40% and crit gear so easy to find, there really is not point to tiger stance.  Now if +melee dmg gear was easier to find, then it would be ok.  We could get gear that would add dmg instead of crit.  But this is not the case.  So as it stands, Harmonious will always do the least dmg of all 3 styles at 50 because the other 2 styles can easily match our crit %.  However, we can not make up 20-25% dmg with gear.  There is just not enough gear out there to do so.

I would still like to know what the crit cap is because I am not sure at lvl50 that harmonious really gain anything from their offensive stance.

So drunken monks already have a better offensive stance than harmonious, and do more damage due to their extra thousand fist finishers.  Now we need to make their defensive stance better as well.  What would be the point in playing anything but drunken monk?  I am all for improving their defensive stance if it means their offensive stance takes a hit.  I do agree that the additional hate should be added on the defensive stance and not neutral.

I heard torchbearer handwraps were increased to 82 dps on test.  Wonder if that is part of increasing all high end monk weapons dps.

You think you solo as well as a rogue?  Are you kidding me?  Try fighting the mob in neutral stance when solo or in defensive stance.  Guarantee you live longer and kill the mob faster than a rogue.  Not even a close comparison.  Remember, the rogue can not use its offensive stance when solo after the first hit or two, and loses the use of many of its abilities.

As for haste not being useless, lets wait until game update 4 to see if it is or isn't.  As of right now, it is completely useless.  And I guess I need to try and stand in front of the mob more often to see if I can keep this buff up.  I don't think I can.  Not to mention, if I can then that means I can also get hit and die.

As for endurance, I don't want to use Aum Ti I want to use Aum Kor.  Why would I use Aum Ti when I can use Aum Kor?  Only if I can't keep my endurance up.  If you don't run out of endurance with all those buffs, then switch to Aum Kor and you will do more damage.  And how in the world can you possibly think that endurance cost is identical between harmonious and dragon?  We have a 40% penalty.  Please explain how you cancel out a 40% endurance penalty.

As for no group buffs or utility, harmonious has not group buffs either.  We have some debuffs.  But in order to use these debuffs we subtract from our dps, so they come at a cost.

I also still don't understand how a harmonious monk can be outdpsing a dragon monk given the current set-up.  Has anyone parsed this and proven that harmonious outdps a dragon monk?

Can someone please tell me what the cap is on Crit %?  I have read somewhere on this board that it is 20% from dex and 30% from gear and abilities for a total of 50%.  If this is true, then it seems that a harmonious monk gets no benefit from crit gear.  They are capped just by entering tiger stance.  Also if that is true, then in reality there should be no benefit to being in tiger stance on a raid if you have crit gear.  With gear and buffs you would reach the 30% cap without going into Tiger Stance.  Thoughts?

Hmm... I can cancel out the endurance penalty?  Umm... NO!  Unless I have a disciple feeding me endurance during the fight I am forced to use Aum Ti.  And even then, despite endurance buffs, I run out of endurance.  Now without the endurance penalty I would be able to use Aum Kor.  This would increase by DPS by reducing my delay in resuse on Thousand Fists and Explode the Heart.  Dragon does not have this issue.

As for Deadly Adder Hand, that attack costs like 60% endurance when in Tiger Stance.  That is an insane amount of endurance for as weak an attack as it is.  The 15% haste called steal the wind is unusable 99% of the time because it is a counter attack, not to mention haste is useless in this game.  BTW it is 30% increase to AC not to mitigation which is a big difference.  The 20s invulnerable of Harmonious is not an invulnerable.  We can still be hit by spells.  We are invulnerable to melee attacks.  That is a big difference.  Drunken has one for 15s.  And what do you consider a high damage DS?  Not to mention, who cares about a DS.  Take it away, would not bother me one bit.  I am not supposed to get hit anyway.

Now as for being unable to outdps a rogue and sorcerer, that is the way it should be.  Sorcerer can't fd and has to wear light armor.  Rogue damage is only good when in stalking form and behind mob.  Rogue can't solo for SNARF.  Tanks out dps a rogue when they in front of a mob.  Now a dragon monk should outdps a ranger, but not a rogue or sorcerer.

I am all for dragon monks getting revamped but I believe your suggestions are a little over the top.  I do believe Dragon should out-dps the other 2 types of monks, but the stance changes you have listed would make all 3 of your stances far superior to Harmonious stances for sure.

Storm Dragon is a very powerful stance as is.  I would much rather have a mitigation penalty than a 40% endurance cost as Tiger does.  Not to mention the cost of doing the massive dps that dragons should do should also come at a risk which would be death if you get aggro due to mitigation penalty.

Neutral - Full regen of HP in 40 seconds?  Hmm would you rather have that or regen 1 jin every 6 seconds or whatever it is?  I would much rather have any hp regen over jin regen especially since we are pullers and lay fd alot.

Defensive - 25% damage reduction + 50% resistance to fire and ice?  Are you kidding me?  Hmm compared to 8% evasion and dodge and what 30% increase in armor?   I will take the 25% dmg reduction and the resists.

Dragon monk offensive stance should make the dragon monk deadly and therefore provide higher dps than the other two monk classes.  However, as stated above, it should come at a risk.  The defensive stance of a dragon monk should be far weaker than the defensive stance of the harmonious and drunken monks, and especially drunken.  Drunken should have the best defensive stance as they are meant to be offtanks, and add aggro control.

Couple of notes:

1.  Harmonious has the worst penalty imo for an offensive stance.  40% endurance cost is huge especially with the revamp to endurance regen every 6 sec.  Can never use Aum Kor which provides a great advantage for dps.  I would much rather have a mitigation penalty than an endurance penalty. 

2.  I don't agree with AE being useless.  AE is useful for killing down spawned adds in some of the Raid encounters.  I do think dragon AE needs to be much improved.  Their AE benefits suck right now.

3.  I think drunken is too high on the dps ladder for monks,  They should be 3rd in the dps ladder as initially intended.

4.  In order for Harmonious to maintain their high dps they have to give up using their debuffs as they are low damage attacks.  In order for me to maintain my debuffs on a mob, I have to constantly keep using them in a raid encounter.  So in order to do high dps we give up our debuffs.  Of course this gives us options and provides utility. 

I would agree that dragon should have slightly more dps than a harmonious, but there real initial intent was to deal massive AE damage.  They definitely fall short on that.  I am not sure why dragon can't out dps a harmonious monk at this point given their offensive stance.  I do feel that drunken has too much dps in comparison.  They are supposed to have the least dps out of all monks.  However they were given a +22% damage offensive stance and an extra thousand fists finisher.  Does not make sense for a defensive monk.