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Latest Member: erutamsixs
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91  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Should have known better on: February 26, 2007, 09:21:57 AM
Im not trying to write an angry post at you or put you down or anything but you think avg 4 to6k at 36 to level 40 is good dps when the other offensive fighters are doing it at mid 20's then you need to wake up.

Don't confuse high crits with total DPS. You can't simply look at how big the individual crit numbers are and state one class is better than the other (unless you're debating max crits, but again, that's not the same as overall DPS).

Monks are designed to be overall high damage across the board, such that the range of damage per attack is high with a small range disparity for each. In other words, you should see sizeable crits mixed in with strong, consistent attacks that add up to an overall DPS among the highest in offensive fighters. Conversely, it's my understanding that Rangers can potentially crit for higher numbers here and there (even at lower levels) but have a greater disparity of damage within each.

From a purely hypothetical standpoint, think something along the lines of the following. This is assuming both are of equal level, equal skill, and have roughly equal gear.

Monk: 300, 300, 350, 4000, 300, 350, 275, etc.
Ranger: 100, 350, 125, 5000, 400, 100, 175, etc.

Again, the Ranger will have high crits coupled with inconsistent mix of high and low attacks. Meanwhile, the Monk should have a more consistent pattern of attacks mixed in with high crits as well, just not quite as high as Rangers. In the end, both are very similar in overall damage output but over the long heal, the Monk should have a slight edge. This is not to say that Monks will always outdamage Rangers in each and every fight, just that they should over the long haul.

This is my understanding of how it was conceptually designed to work. Today, Rangers may be a little on this high side with some of their attacks which are putting them above everyone else. If true (and assuming this isn't a Brad fetish thing again), then Rangers will most certainly see some correction down the road (or perhaps Monks boosted). The devs have parsers they use to determine if their model is balanced properly but it would be ideal if players had a parser available as well. Monks in EQ use to run these all the time and provided they were used correctly, were a valuable tool to help the devs out. If one isn't available now (I don't know of any yet..YALP maybe?), I'm sure it's only a matter of time before there is one.
92  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Should have known better on: February 25, 2007, 03:07:55 PM
how are you FD splitting mobs when as soon as you FD the mobs now immediatly run back to spawn point?  Its not about the pass/fail FD its about the mobs just run back immediatly making it impossible to single one out.  Unless of course its only 2 mobs and you use the 30 sec stun on one.  Even then you dont get that skill untill 22 which means prior to that the split can no longer be done.

Why exactly would you think this is limited to only 2 mob pulls? Pull 8 if you want. They all get close, use Nerve Strike, FD, the rest run back, stand, pull the single. Not sure where you see the limitations.

As for the level, perhaps they could have given it to monks earlier in the game but it's hardly crippling that it's not. Last time I checked, there are still 50 levels in the game and level 22 is far, far, FAR from even halfway there.
93  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Should have known better on: February 24, 2007, 05:17:23 PM
It's a MMO not even a month out of launch. I'm pretty sure I get it plenty. It took arguably 4 years before EQ finally got classes even remotely balanced. It took WoW at least a year (some would say they're still out of whack).

Yes you should voice concerns about issues with our class but making sweeping statements such as "monks are completely and utterly useless" are unfactual. I've had no trouble getting pick-up groups and not heard one person complain about my class being a hinderance to the group's progress. Perhaps that will change in due time but so far, it's not been an issue. Again, several statements outside of just me supporting this as well.
 
And if you're truly interested in seeing improvements, supply your posts with concrete yet realistic ways to improve the class, although I'm sure more than a few are expecting nothing short of the proverbial "laser beams out of their eyes and complete heals" (TM) as the miracle cure-all to the monk class.

Fix my bank account so items stop disappearing on a whim. Fix the FD bug once and for all. Fix the map so I can rely on it consistently. I'd take all that and be a happy camper. Bragging rights for having the highest DPS in my group? That can come later when many other classes start getting nerfed back to where they should be in the game.
94  Monk Discussion / Monk Tactics & Techniques / Re: How are YOU creating DPS for your groups on: February 24, 2007, 01:57:34 PM
I've tried similar tactics, swapping between stances with mixed results. Ideally, it would be nice to have a parser to determine how much of a difference it's actually making (or even if one at all) but I don't know of any. Conceptually though, I have to wonder if it was their intention to have monks micro-manage the stances this way. While part of me likes the idea, I think it's a little too cumbersome, even when setting up macros to do all the switching.
95  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Should have known better on: February 24, 2007, 01:52:17 PM
To be fair, the game was too ambitious in concept from the start and woefully behind schedule in development. As a result, Sigil has had to scramble to address critical issues first and foremost while making cursory fixes elsewhere. Look at the patch notes for proof. Beta is only going to catch so much of this with such a limited playerbase to test it.

What's my point? The game isn't even a month old. Complaining that a dev didn't respond to a post about class balance is silly right now. Again, go run through the numerous chunks on Qalia completely void of content. That's a much bigger issue to the overall health of the game than "I'm a monk and I can't get a group". Hell, I'd give anything if they could just fix the damn map.

Having said all that, that's certainly not to say that class balance should be ignored. From my personal viewpoint, I just see enough evidence both in game and on the forums that say all the doomsday talk about monks being completely broken and useless is simply over-exaggerated. On my server, I see a new monk every day it seems climbing through his mid twenties and some nearing the 30s. They wouldn't be there if they were useless or miserable. I've talked to several and while all of them almost universally agree that we need a few changes here and there, most understand that it'll take some time to flesh out.
96  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Monk bugs / issues / suggestions (No Drama) on: February 24, 2007, 01:25:04 PM
Good job getting this together. My 2 jin points worth:

Generally speaking, I think monks are fairly balanced but could use some tweaking. Here are some possible suggestions and feedback from a level 19 Harmonious monk.

Crane Stance - For the most part, I think this is ok, although I'd like to see a slight % increase it gives to dodge and parry than what it currently gives. Perhaps make it a range that scales upward in level.

Tiger Stance - This stance needs help, IMO. Specifically, the endurance hit is simply too penalyzing. I'd also like to see a scaling damage boost added to this stance that eventually caps at 20%, much the way damage is decreased by 20% for Crane and scales downward.

Harmonious Stance - In its current state, I find this to be largely useless. In fact, I doubt it's even working as intended as it's rather easy to abuse. Sadly, there's not much benefit in abusing it because Jin recovery isn't really a problem. I think the Jin regen rate should be increased significantly such that it's actually meaningful in combat. I also think the stance should provide a similar regen mod to Endurance as well. Only then would I really consider using this stance over the other two.

Jin - Overall, I think the Jin system is balanced fairly well. Replenishing Jin points through attacks makes it the system fairly efficient while also providing a somewhat limited means to burn through it quickly when needed. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing a true Jin burn ability at some point.

Endurance - This is arguably the one area that could use the most attention. Enduarnce costs as they are today are a little too high across the board. Even in Crane stance, an Eagle Claw/Deadly Adder combo to open a fight takes a significant chunk of my Endurance, especially if one misses and needs to be fired again. In Tiger Stance, this scenario is crippling. I think the base regen rate is probably fine but the costs themselves need to be looked at or we need additional ways to increase our total Endurance pool.

Eagle Claw - Solid effect but would like to see the mitigation % be changed from a flat 15% to say 10% and scale upwards. Addiitonal EC upgrades should continue this mitigation scale while adding additional side effects.

Deadly Adder - Strong ability. The problem is that it's great for its level but then shows diminishing effects for each level afterwards. If they don't change it, it should at least have an upgrade available every 4 levels or so.

Quivering Palm - would like to see the effect increased from 8 secs to 12 secs.

Ignore Pain - would very much like to see this % based instead of hard numbers or a range.

Itemization - I guess my only concern at this point is Sigil's stance on bare fists. They've said that bare fists pretty much scale upwards such that only the rarest of legendary weapons will surpass their DPS. I guess I could live with this, although this may be rather penalyzing at later levels when trying to eek out every HP you can to survive a raid, not to mention the fun factor of weapon choices ("Oh sweet! It dropped the Uber Ulak of Greatness!! Oh wait...).

That's all I have for now but I'm sure there will be more to come.
97  Monk Discussion / Monk General / Re: Should have known better on: February 24, 2007, 10:27:44 AM
As far as balance goes I think monks are  about right.  It's the other classes that are way overpowered.  NO way a disciple or 3/4 of the other classes in the game should be able to solo even con 3 dot mobs when we do not even stand a chance.  I would rather the game be a little harder for everyone then easier for monks.

For the most part, I would agree with these same sentiments. Given what I know I can solo and what I can't as a monk at my level, it seems generally in line with what the devs had in mind for content. We do need some tweaks but I'd say that's largely it. No doubt some classes are going to see some rather significant nerfs to their classes eventually as they are just a little overpowered. I'd rather them fall back down to monks than monks be elevated up to match them because that's simply going to make the game easier and dilute its overall appeal, IMO.

The notion that monks are completely useless as the OP states is hardly true. And while I may only be 19 atm, I know of at least a dozen monks on my server higher than me continuing to level up in their mid and high 20s so they're clearly enjoying the class as well.

The game still has critical issues that need to be fixed first so class balance should take a backseat to things like several chunks in Qalia that are flat out empty of content. Anyone who has played a MMO before should know how this works by now.
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