i just hope they nerf errant strikes. i know i said the "N" word about other monks, but this one ability is causing way too many problems and is resulting in all monks getting the nerf bat. if drunken is sposed to be the "tanking" monk then they should have the lowest dps, not the highest in the game by such a huge margin.

i just love the "bug" fix here. i mean it fixes so much! like how we are going to have to be nerfed again in 6-months when multiple swing attacks become overpowered again. or when they realize multiple swing attacks are the reason that Drunken has such a HUGE advantage over everyone else.

instead of fixing the problem they have simply nerfed everyone, and will have to nerf again in the future to fix what the problem actually is.

of course this is all tinfoil hat stuff, since if your not in the top few guilds you must be an idiot and not understand whats going on with the game mechanics.

well, if whats good for the game is whats good so the high end raiders can get more content... vanguard is gonna have an awfully short life.

oh, and some hard numbers for those "average" monks like me, ill try to format it as a table here, based on my stats and raid buffed, w/o jin surge:

              CURRENT              NEW
TF                5289                  3920
FoC             10578                7158
ES               21156                13630
QJ               42312                26577

now, according to taliskar, unless you are hitting those 200k hits you wont notice a difference. i beg to differ. oh and adding in the bonus per "extra" ability? you get 3920, 7840, 15680 and 31360 respectively. that is with adding in the flat damage once per TF attack instead of just once.

not as hard as you think. in no apw gear and simply macroing QJ and FC in i can hit for 21k or so. given Errant (im harmo) that would turn to about 42k. add an epic crit in and your at 160k. thats not counting jin surge, nor is it counting paladin aura, or secret of transcendece which are both % modifiers. so 15% and im at 184k in pre-apw gear.

my problem at this point is fusoya's last comment. that is not how the tooltips read, its not how the abilities work. the way you are starting to twist words to fit what sony wants you to say you should be working for the white house or the clintons.

so your normal, non-QJ, non-FC, non-ES, non-epic crit thousand fists hits for about 8k? am i correct in pairing down your epic hits and special attacks?

i just highlighted the point im refering too here. Quickblade causes the ability to work twice. which would be the same as hitting the button twice. so with quickblade it should be the damage you get from the ability, (900+100+500)x2= 3000, NOT as talisker is saying (900+100)x2+500 = 2500.

the 4x is screwy i agree, but if we go by taliskers example this isnt a bug fix, its a bug fix +extra nerf which isnt necessary (at this point.) fix the bug, re-evaluate it before gu6 and go from there.

/editing because i wasnt clear on the point i was making.

couple more quick questions:

6) i notice that talisker uses boundless fist to explain how an ability works, then uses thundering fist for the "unbalanced" example. can we see the "effects" list for thundering?

7) the line " used 500 flat dmg in my example.  This is a very conservative number compared to what players can get in a raid." bothers me. what are the kinds of numbers seen in raids when its all added up? what specifically is fusoya's flat damage when hes reproducably pulling this off. this number shouldnt be part of the "classified" info since the only people who can hit like this aready have the gear to pull it off and im not asking for buffs or timing/sequencing. im just asking for an actual number, not some vague "well its high."

are rogues seeing the same sort of "super-hits" that fusoya is (i.e. 200k)? are their attacks primarily weapon or melee damage attacks?

im not tryin to be argumentative i just do not think that this has been well explored or thought out. i could easily be wrong, however we have been given a very scanty explanation for what is happening, an explanation that several seem to have shot holes in. without information the skepticism that this is nothing but a nerf disguised as a bug fix will persist. not to mention that i personally do not think that the dev team nor blades of wrath has totally figured out the problem, and tryin to "fix" a problem based on an incomplete picture of that problem WILL create issues down the line.

im not saying it is easy. god knows that sigil was ineffective at management, and the game is so huge that sorting thru all of the coding to find out what is happening has got to be a nightmare. however, consider the very first question i asked. if the flat damage is being added twice to each attack because of dual wield, then nerfing the attacks in general cripples two-handed weapon use (which may or may not be effected by the bug.) it also drops that massive 200k attack down significantly simply by changing where a parenthesis lay in an equation. looking at small, simple changes is always preferable than saying well we are going to add yet another factor into an already complex problem and hope it works.

a few quick questions for fusoya, as taliskers bug expanation is still not making sense. first looking at his "Quickblade example:

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We'll use Shank for our example. 

Shank - deals % weapon damage plus a small amount of bonus damage. 

Quickblade - causes the Rogues attacks to strike twice for a short time.

Our Rogue (lets call him Mardolmer, shall we?) attacks a bad guy with and without Quickblade.  For the sake of ease, let's say that Shank's base damage is 900 and that the plus damage portion is 100.  He also has 500 worth of flat damage from buffs.

    How it is supposed to work w/o quickblade - the damage is 900 (base) + 100 (bonus dmg) + 500 (flat dmg) = 1500dmg.

    How the bugged version works w/o quickblade - the damage is 900 + 100 + 1000 (flat dmg being applied 2x) = 2000dmg.  Here we don't see a huge difference; we are only getting the flat dmg one additional time.

    How it is supposed to work w/ quickblade - 900 + 100 + 900 (quickblade) + 100 (quickblade) + 500 = 2500

    How the bugged version works w/ quickblade - 900 + 100 + 900 + 100 + 2000 (flat dmg applied 4x) = 4000.  This amount is MUCH more than we expect or desire.

So if you followed me through all that, you see that Flat Damage + an ability with multiple dmg effects is a recipe for crazy dps.  Bugged DPS.  I used 500 flat dmg in my example.  This is a very conservative number compared to what players can get in a raid.
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1) is the combat bug reproducable using a 2-handed weapon? it appears by taliskers example here that it is applying the weapon dmg bonus to the off-hand weapon as well as the mainhand weapon. has this been tested? with the lack of high end two-handers for monks, and rogues being dual wield exclusive i can see how that could be overlooked.

2) it would seem to me that how it is sposed to work with quickblade would be:
=(900+100+500)+(900+100+500)
 since, if you hit the shank button twice you would get:
[button hit 1]
=900+100+500
[button hit 2]
=900+100+500

*NOT* as talisker is suggesting =(900+100+900+100)+500

can you explain why he is going with the later explanation?

3) the posted example on the combat log section is a critical hit (fusoya's combat log hit for 76k using errant + FoC.) is the 200k hit which taliskar keeps referencing a critical? epic? legendary?

4) how is the critical hit equation done? is the flat damage added in before or after the extra multiplier is added?

5) out of curiosity, why is there a 4k hit difference between the errant strike and FoC damage lines in the combat log posted. it seems like that is a significant difference.

any answers would be appreciated.

http://vanguard.xanadu-community.com/items.php?page=viewItem&id=16

looks worse than greystone?

do share.
please.
you may find that what you think is not necessarily what the monk community thinks.

same, i was the only non-glowy person on the fire guys the other night.

it would be nice to see 2 handed weapons be made useful as well. i know that if 2 handers did 2x crit damage instead of 2x weapon dmg it would make tiger stance much more attractive.

you are 100% right. the biggest problems are the multiplicative effects. the "Flat damage" stuff is just a way to justify a full class nerf, if you only nerf the multiplicatives it only effects the cases where you have tons of multiple attack buffs stacked. take those away and the problem goes away w/o a top down nerf.

they (SOE) i am sure are aware of this. but it is much easier to say "well see we found this bug here, sorry  guys buts its a bug we gotta fix it!" instead of "well, we need to nerf the damage so that sorcs have an edge. not enough people are playing them so we need that flavor of the month."

are the changes going to happen regardless of what any of us think? yep. cant do a damn thing about. it would be nice to have them not try to BS us but well im sure a public relations expert is writing the "official" story.

i like how you link that post as a proof of how it works, then use that post to link here and go see this is how it works.