Last time I checked turgin mitigation reduction attack didn't stack?

Regardless of anything else people are correct who feel that its messed up for one dps class to be twice or moreso powerful than another.

Even non "uber" geared monks and rogues in most cases easily top charts by margins that are unacceptably large not just the top 1%.

That is rediculous and does need to be brought into a reasonable margin...though my fear is like most that it will shatter the classes in any normal non raid environment when the balancing act takes place for GU6.

Gears turn slowly when you are short on resources.  I doubt strongly that monks and rogues will feel functional compared to other dps classes in group and solo after GU6.  I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

Regardless of what they call it or not (and I would wholly agree that its a major major major nerf to monks/rogue) it still seems that it needs to happen at this point, regardless of original design.  The potential problem is in the follow through.

With limited resources and such drastic changes...I'm skeptical of how "balanced" things will be left feeling when all is said and done at the end of GU6.  I'll keep my fingers crossed granted but I'm not a fool either and suspect it will take a loooong time to iron out the hitches and glitches.

I dunno thor, I think the bug fix is needed because it "should" allow for more flex in design.  Considering that right now most +damage abilities stack on multihit attacks it makes it damn difficult to balance those kinds of buffs because they get out of control in select circumstances.  Reigning that in a bit will make it much easier to balance.

Or to view it differently, if you are building a machine and your goal is relatively smooth output, but you find in practice you have major spikes in the production when you are adding a compound into your mix, you would want to find out what is causing the spikes and fix it so that you can safely add in the compound without it messing up the production flow.

The reasoning for doing what they are doing makes a lot of sense.  So does bringing the DPS classes much more in line with each other so that content can be balanced to be challenging across a range of class combinations.  That's all good stuff and for the betterment of the game.

My concerns (as outlined above) are that, with DPS made more even across the board (as it should be) utility and what a class can bring to the table will be notably more important, and some provide more function or risk/maintenance than others and not neccesarily in proportional ammounts.  Additionally monks and rogues are severely dependant on their ability to blitz down an enemy when soloing, notably reducing their damage without giving them an extra tool or two for soloing can and will most likely have major consequences.  There are a lot of different ways to go about that but ultimately something should be done to compensate.

Some people clearly don't like what I'm saying as I got kicked 3 times yesterday for it, but it doeesn't change the fact that this is the nature of the situation.  /shrug

Perfect example I've gotten 3 kicks today.  For what exactly?

No clue but someone didn't like something I said and took the easy way.  It happens.

I figure its most heavily used by people who don't like what someone says but really can't argue with it either, or don't want to take the time to argue it...in reality sometimes that's for the best if it helps them vent so I just ignor it and focus on what people actually say. 

Lol yeah it must have pissed someone off, I just got kicked again. 

That's exactly what I do in my duo when possible.

Granted it falls apart if they are immune to stuns etc. but sometimes there are ways around that with items such as the "mez potions" in RI. 

Also if there are casters present in the mix they sometimes run or react at different paces when casting spells and you can sometimes get a good spread going by flopping and standing up repeatedly.  Of course with how glitchy FD is this can be VERY risky but I've done it on more than one occasion.  In those cases having long range or quested shuriken helps a lot.

I would say my largest concerns are twofold and in regards to the ultimate rebalancing, not the bug fix.  They are in regards to monk and rogue viability in raids and solo.

Rogues:
After the final rebalancing, no one will bother playing rogues (again) because, on raids,  they will offer equal or less damage than sorcerers, less utility, and have to be in melee range behind the mob making them require more resources to support and keep alive if the mob has AOEs or damage sheilds.  Addititionally rogues already solo OKish at best.  Don't get me wrong, it can be done but if their damage was nerfed significantly (after the final rebalancing)they'd be in a world of hurt once again leading to less people bothering to play them.  In groups having them do damage on par with sorcerers typically won't matter much either way as the utility that either provide isn't usually saught after (not saying it should or shouldn't be but its usually simply not considered by most groups).

Monks:
...once again only the hormonious monk will be "the best choice" on raids, as they will at least have debuffs to give to help justify having to fight from melee range.  Drunken, dragon?  Why use them over a sorcerer?  What is supposed to offset the penalty of having to fight in melee range and sucking down all AOE damage plus damage sheilds?  Why burn up the extra liability that requires more healers if you can use more casters considerably more safely from range?  Pullers?  Maybe but I've seen it done just fine with disc and necro (as it should be, since no one class should be an end all be all at something), dragon and drunken need desirable utility for raids or need dps that exceeds that of a sorcerer if even by a little to justify expending the extra healing resources to have them in a fight.  Solo, harmonious monks start doing OK eventually at mid to higher levels, drunk and dragon are pretty poor at it thrughout.  But like rogues they depend on their high dps to burn down the mob faster than they get killed.  If they are nerfed heavily after the overall final rebalancing their solo preformance will go to downright abysmal.  Groups once again, harmonious?  OK, they have their debuffs.  Drunken?  Sure if the group has no tank and they are built right it will suffice for a lot of content.  Dragon? Why?  Why would you use dragon over any other dps class available?  Don't get me wrong, most groups really don't care about the utility that monks or rogues or sorcers (or rangers for that matter) bring to groups, they are just looking for more dps and anything does the job.  But if you can't justify a tactical advantage that a particular class or class/path combo gives then what is the point of playing them when another one can give a comparative edge in most situations?

Dragon is by far in need of some kind of real utility (I've suggested being able to apply some kind of elemental weakness debuff so a mob takes more damage from fire for example etc.) and since drunken's tank abilities are all but useless on raids they need something to offer as well (perhaps fix and expand their options in terms of aggro manipulation not on par with but like a melee version of psi).  Both monk and rogue will need something in the solo dept if their damage is nerfed.

At the end when this grand final rebalancing is done there had better be good and reasonable answers as to question such as "why use a dragon monk on a raid if another dps class such as a sorcerer is avialable?"  It should be a hard decision with both offering compartive advantages.  If its an easy decision in most cases then things are not "balanced".

This conversation as it stands makes no one, nor their guild,  look good and serves no purpose.  Most of the people come here to learn about monks.  You are both better than this, clean it up. 

So if I understand right, you feel that it will be sorc at ~3.2k
and rogue will be ~3.19?
monk~3.1?
Ranger and everyone else 3kish?

It will be interesting to see Fusoya's explaination of things.
None of this current takes into account how melee haste will change either.

A lot of stuff around the corner, I doubt strongly it is all going to work out exactly how anyone anticipates and will probably take a while to get it all right.

Rather than everyone speculating beyond what was noted officially it would probably be best to wait for Fusoya to deliver his post detailing what will change and why.

I'm personally leaning towards Draxs's opinion on this.  When all is said and done monks and rogues will still be quite viable as dps choices and monk will still be tops for pulling.  I can't see why this would be so problematic.  Its not like sorcerers bring a ton of utilty or rangers so justifying that monks and rogues should be leages ahead of them in damage is just silly.  I would be realistically looking for a small bump to monk utility to round out the package over wanting to be excessively ahead of others in dps regardless.  But that's my personal preferences.

As for bards, they have great and flexible buffing through their songs which means they have to be in play for it to take effect unlike the 1hr buffs of others.  I know thier ability haste will be set to no longer stack with psi ability haste.  Perhaps they need to be reduced further etc. but considering how they work its a very fine line to walk between bards being overpowered and or suddenly underpowered, aka if their song components are made too weak in a given aspect then it will suddenly become an all or nothing deal instead of adding diversity to the class...which would in a sense destroy a lot of the fun of playing a bard to begin with.  Its not a quick easy thing to balance out while still maintianing the functional diversity of the class especially if you take how it functions in groups and solo into account..

Just curious, but what is your reasoning to put harmonious monks below rangers?

I would suspect its more likely to have drunk and harmonious be very close to each other when all is said and done with dragon a bit higher and rogue a bit higher than than.  Ranger should be just barely below drunk/harmo.  People can claim rangers have utility and flexability to flip between ranged and melee...and that's true.  But its typically not taken into account when picking them for a group/raid so much as "we need more dps".

To be fair the ranger heal is trivial enough that it really doesn't provide a significant edge in the vast majority of group and raid content, its nice solo and that's about it.

Additionally, only one of the ranger buff (the 5% crit bonus) buff is truelly valuable.  And they have a little in the way of debuff. 

Their ranged attacks if built correctly for it are simply excellent though I would agree.  And so yes that flexability should cost something, but they shouldn't be "that far" behind monks.  People want rangers in groups typically for the same reason they want monks and rogues, DPS.  I have yet to hear someone say "OH thank god!  Ranger buffs and heals!"

So it would make sense to keep all three relatively close in the grand scheme of things  (granted with rogue on top, followed by monk followed by ranger followed by bard).

My opinion of course.