Vanguard Monks

QtM has been asked several times on Pushing Hands and what we wnt to do with it.  Most of us have taken it off the hot bar or the rarely use it due to its limited use.

realy unsure of what I would want myself with it. Most likely needs to be unique in application as all monks get it. We would more then likely not get another attack with it, so be creative.

maybe a jin to endurance exchange or vice versa
another jin surge type group attack
Hot self Heal


or not even change it at all and leav it be

There is several boss fights where mobs get into stances and those stances not being removed can eventually wipe a raid..there is also enchantments which certian casters  cast to take them out.
Push hands takes the mobs out of the stance. Rangers i think also get a similar skill

I think I made a suggestion about this before. Why not make it have another effect, like a push back (knock back) similar to what the name implies. I would also lower the Endurance cost... it's a bit steep.

The ability is fine. It's just that mob don't use stances often and if they do, they can switch back to it within 5 seconds of us using the ability.  That's what's wrong with it.

The first problem with it is that mobs rarely use STANCEs that it can remove

The second problem is the skill costs 40 endurance, which is crippling for a skill thats next to useless except on maybe 20 mobs total in the game.

Im fine with it removing stances
1) Make it work in pvp
2) Lower its end cost to 10 since most mobs/pc can switch a stance back on if they choose to
3) Make more mobs default to have stances. 

It could also prevent the target from switching stances for the next 15-30 seconds or so. That could work.

Yeah it should prevent another stance being entered for X seconds

Maybe tune to closer to what DK have, have it strip a positive enchantment that a mob has and/or take them out of the stance they are in.

 I think Strip one buff (on mob), take them out of stance they are currently in, and null stance change for 30 seconds, 25 endurance cost.

I would like to see pushing hands keep its affect now of forcing a mob out of its stance, and at the same time because you have taken a mob say off balance have the mob be vulnerable for a set time and not be able to assume a new stance during this period.  Matter of fact it should be susceptible to more damage because the mob is trying to regain its balance and cannot defend itself properly.

Ushiba

I just want to clarify that I think that the overall idea is great the end cost is a touch steep imo but, forcing mobs out of  stances is a wonderfull thing. It's limitations is that the game is not really making mobs use stances.... this is the main reason why it doesnt get much play. Thus it's limited value.

I am hoping that the devs make for more interesting combat by having mobs make use of stances. For now its sits at the very end of a hot bar I normally use for my CR stuff.

~QTM

Well, I'm not sure if this is realistic, but seeing as how this skill pushes the mob 'off balance' and out of their stance, what if it also decreased dodge/parry/block?   I also agree end. cost needs to be halfed, and there needs to be a set amoount of time before the mob can enter another stance.  I don't think changing the skill to something else completely is the way to go.  Just improve upon what it is.  I'm sure this will be a useful skill as the game progresses with tougher mobs.  However, Disciples get a smiliar skill so it's not unique to Monks.

This is a very important skill and is mandatory we have it. Other than the steep END cost I dont see it needing anything looked at. It is a good idea to have it stop a mob from returning to a stance for X number of seconds but should not be implimented IMO.

It would simplify some encounters in a negative way, IMO.

I say keep the skill as is.. keep the cost as is.. and give it a (0) second stun, to interrupt casters, assuming there's a cooldown to keep balance.  20 seconds  maybe.  Do Mobs have a cooldown affected by their changing stances?  I heard the 5 seconds mentioned earlier, but couldn't recall but one encounter with a stanced mob... which at the time, i surprised myself by remembering this and it worked wonderfully :)

Problem with a cooldown is that several mobs (few bosses too) require the skill to be used several times to knock out the stance, and leaving the mobs stance up is not a wise idea..so much so that it can quickly wipe a raid.From the many tests with this skill i have done on different encounters the skill works just fine as it is,som mobs are easier to knock out of their stance..some take quite a bit (having more then 1 class using the skill helps a ton )

Actually there are a couple of changes that would be nice. The end cost is fine IF it only takes one push to get them out of stance. Problem is i never know if its my pushing or if their stance simply times out when i have to push 5-10 times which takes a few to do. Also be nice if they added a personal text for the pusher saying "Mob_01 lost his balance and staggered, losing his stance" or something like that so u know when it works....  :idiot2:

Like its now im simply not even sure if it works....of course would be nice to know the difference between a stance and a buff on the mob.... There is much confusion around this...not only from me...

If you use a UI thats shows not only the symbol but also the names of buffs/debuffs it will say:

Major stance of xxx

so you know when to use the stance kick.

 same fo casters it will say:

Greater Enchantment of xxx

of course you could also mouseover the symbols but thats not really practical :)

you can also seperate mobs buffs and debuffs so you can see the 1-3 buffs they cast and can see the strance every time.

I have  mob buffs, debuffs on the mob, weakness on the mob all in seperate columns

Cool thanks guys!:)

Since there isn't that many times it's applicable as is... what if it also applied numerous weaknesses? 

Glad someone found this post, i've been looking (not so hard) for us to revisit this ability... it needs to be handy sooner in the game IMO.

Just wanted to bring this back up again. Is anything happening with this?

I had known this for a bit, but finally got around to posting.

Our Pushing Hands cost 40 endurance and removes the enemies stance.

The Ranger version "Cripple" has the following effect:

A crippling attack that does 50% weapon damage and reduces opponents damage by xxx for (15) seconds and forces target out of whichever stance they are in.

Seems kind of stupid that ours A) Costs more B)Does no Damage C) Has no additional effects.

This really should be changed in some way.

I would be for it being improved, but not removed. There are some bosses in APW where you simply must remove them from their stance. Enraged X-83 I believe will be the first one you run into, and I believe that his stance gives him a 100% mitigation ability. He will probably be the second real boss that you encounter in APW.

Yes cripple for Ranger is so much better then Pushing Hands, but you definetely want the ability to remove stances available to more then on class. So instead of going for removal we should go for improvement.

Xon

I'd go for either 20 Endurance and some damage, or 40 Endurance and an evasion or accuracy debuff. Or - as I originally suggested - having it prevent the mob from entering a stance again in the next period of time.

Not really a change recomendation, but id like a big message to pop up when i knock a mob out of its stance, being as the UI lags so much it sometimes shows mobs in stance a good 10 to 30 secodns after youve knocked them out

/agrees with fujitsu

Sure would be great to get a message when you succesfully knock a mob out of it's stance.

UI delay is annoying but you can add targetrefresh on pushing hands, so you will know when to stop knocking.
/cast "Pushing Hands"
/targetoffensive clear
/assist MA/MT

hmm, didnt know about that, ill try it next raid. thanks

They could just leave it as is and remove the timer/cost and i'll shut up ;p


Didn't see anyone suggest removing the ability Xon ... /shrug
No one wants us to lose it, we just want it more useful overall in game, and not just in APW
Especially Me, who yawns at the thought of raiding, peace

Adding any form of damage to this attack would be a bad idea..take vercel and siliasauras..their stance is a Very painful damage sheild..and takes several hit to remove.In my opinion just adding a message"x has had their stance removed" would be a great improvement.
As for reuse ..its already fast reuse although the end cost is a bit rough.
Overall its already very useful (yes raiding purpose)except for PvP..fix the PVP side and it would be really good

i agree with kivik as well i think a text like fd would be cool it either worked or it didnt if it didnt i dont think we should get an endurance cost with it cause the abilty does no great damage.

maybe a regen bar like mana n hp ect  on mob shows how much we have to push get him outa stance?

1: make it work instantly.....meaning ONE pushing hands pushes mob out of stance. Kinda silly that you have to push 8-10 times on a mob sometimes... On a mob like DL that delay means A LOT.
2: If not then, yeah, at least give us a message saying we succeeded  :)
3: Remove 75% of the end cost.

1) Youll never see this, some mobs are ment ot have to be pushed 4-6 times, so you either have 4 classes that push or you have one class that spends the entire fight pushing

2) Yes a message would be nice

3) it should only be 20end cost not 50, its a bit a ridiculous atm

Yeah add some damage would be nice...

A crippling blow that knocks the target out of his stance....

Instead what we currently have is... a tap on the shoulder, a kiss on the cheek and the target agrees to change stances for you.

Ii dont want it to dmg, 9/10 times when i push stance its on mobs with a damage shield, so if it added dmg it would engage me in combat and i would die ;-(

A debuff would be nice though

20end plus a message would make me very happy.

I'd take that over it causing a debuff considering that adding a debuff would "likely" raise back up the endurance cost and the few times where you need to use it you tend to have to spam it like crazy.  Lower endurance makes it more functional towards its intended purpose.

Adding a debuff will give it more global utility granted, but on the whole I'd rather keep it focused.  Just my feelings on it of course.  :)

Hm...was sure it was 40 endurance.....why i said 75% of current cost....meaning 10 end pr push....

I see nothing wrong with pushing hands in its current state aside from it using 40 endurance ( about double what ranger's stance push does ) and it also seems to be significantly weaker than rangers stance push... Typically takes about twice and many pushes to yield the same result as a ranger.... twice as many pushes with double the endurance cost really makes rangers the viable choice for a stance pusher...