Vanguard Monks

No you cant have my stuff.

Just wanted to thanks the community for its time and I enjoyed arguing with some of you as well as agreeing. I was initially very happy that they were extending a helping hand to our class through Quinn.

However (to Sigil) trying to convince me that you are working on helping our class by outright nerfing the last remaining thing we had going for us (bare fists), while only raising our base damage slightly (while significantly increasing clerics melee damage?) shows me you don't give a rats ass about our class. And no I will not give them more time.

If eventually they nerfed our hand to hand damage thats fine; I expected that they would, but starting out with the nerf, while doing nothing  what so ever about buffing us is just too much. Who the hell is the PR person for the dev team anyway?  Its like they want monks to cancel their subscriptions, at least it seems that way to me.

If however they changed our abilities to a weapon % base + damage, somehow increased crit range for each style type (Harm gets a significant increase with one of their stances so changing abilities to increase crit% is a bad idea) they could have added say 5% crit to each of Dragons and Drunkens offensive stances, which would have helped with the currently low crit rate, but they didnt.

They didnt change a damn thing about our outdated skill set, but just through a bandaid on it (really did you think a "slight increase in dps" is what monks wanted, considering that there was a "Vast Chasm" between rogue/ranger and monk dps? Are you guys serioiusly retarded? Take in the bare fist nerf and alls a slight increase in base damage does is put us right back where we are right now.... take 100 - 10 then add 10 still equals 100. The only thing they did was allow us to get some additional stats yay! ill give up dps for some more +energy! WEWT!

I allowed them to make me think they would actually do something, and they may still do so, however to start with such an obvious PR blunder leads me to believe they could give a SNARF less about the second least played class in the game. I sincerly hope their subsciption base allows them to make bone head mistakes like this, but I can now take a step back, relax and focus my energy and money on something else.


Thanks Quinn, you are truely a pimp TL and keep up the good work for as long as you can take it! Peace out other monks and hopefully you will get what the class deserves someday.

Well said man.  In my eyes that is pretty much all they did was nerf nerf nerf. Then they nerf + add to equal out the current nerf.  They must think we are stupid or something.  One of the most over powerd classes in game (cleric) gets a significant DPS increase.  That made my heart sink.  Im stupid enough to stick with the class though.  I dont know why, i guess I am just stubborn.  However my stubborness wont last too much longer before I hit that cancel button.  Sorry I know there are other classes out there to play that would probably make me happy.  Fact is me and my friends are 30 already and I have no desire to reroll and play catch up by myself for the next 2 months.

Ill miss your posts bro,  I enjoyed posting in the same threads as you and seeing what you had to say.  Thanks for your community and hopefully one day.. they will fix us and you will come back.

One of the problems is that they might not have a single dev out there who is:
(1) Grouping with every class to see grouping issues.  Some issues only arrive in groups and it is necessary to be in them to discover the issue.
and
(2) Soloing with every class to see solo issues.  The soloing is important even if someone mainly groups though because a lot becomes evident when you are all by yourself and you see what you are doing.

Without one person actually going out and playing a bunch of different classes, the inequities aren't really apparent.  I'm sure every "class lead" has grievances and lists all of the downsides to each class.  So if you are just listening to class leads, you aren't really getting the picture.  You really need one person out there who does everything with every class, ALONG with the class leads.

Like many here, I'm sure, I played in beta.  That's not really helpful right now though as so much restructuring was done post-beta.  Also post-beta, I've played a bunch of classes.  Monk is obviously gimp.  You only have to have played, say, half a dozen other classes into the 15-30 range to realize this.  Hopefully they will get their act together and realize it too eventually.

I'm currently having fun playing a gimp class.  We'll see how long it lasts.

Well said, Ive also stopped my monk, at a level of 32, after seeing the next patch message as a nerf without addressing all the more important issues first.
Ive rerolled a druid, currently upto level 27 after this exp weekend, and wow... im loving it.
While i loved the monk class, the idea behind it, the style, the Feign !! I know even when it is eventually fixed that i wont return to it. I was a druid for 5 years in EQ, and i think im a druid again for some time to come in VG.
Was fun being a monk however while it lasted.
Hats off to all of you monks who stick this out and wait for the improvements :)
/bow

Have you tried it out on test to confirm the changes result in a weaker monk?
How do you know it won't actually improve the monk?
The description of what they intend to do is far to vague to base any judgements on at this point.

Lomash. no i have not tested it... read between the lines though... "monks base damage is getting a SLIGHT increase"

Slight = practically nothing

bare handed damage is getting nerfed
our skill set does not take weapons into account

So tell me how does a "slight base damage increase" help us... especially after a bare handed dmg nerf.

disciple and clerics "will be getting a SIGNIFICANT increase to there dmg and special attacks"

Has any of this hit live servers yet? Talk about jumpin the gun. Its only been what 2 weeks of dealing with the evasion nerf. I grinded my monk all day sunday. Ran Tengral keep all day and never had a single issue with FD goin bad, or having to stun an add, or pick one up and switch stance and drunk monk tank. Patience, let them drop the dps increase to LIVE servers, and see what is said or what happens after that that would define sigil doing nothing and in your thoughts so to speak, damning the class forever.

Considering we really just got attention from a dev last week and now have a start to a fix so soon. I think a thank you is in order for them to pick this up so quickly after having to deal with pushing the rouges out. Devs come here, I hate having them see such random jack assery saying there not doing their jobs when they can really only try to fix us a little at a time so they don't go screwin us up even more.

Make an alt, thats what i did, now i got a 20 shaman, and a pretty fun monk.

Thats funny Teno... "give them time".  Time has shown thus far over the last 30 days.  Double nerfs to evasion.  Nerf to crit rate.  Screwed up FD now having to exploit to split pull.  Comming to live soon.... nerf to bare hand damage. slight increase to base damage... which will probably BARELY make up for the nerf to bare hands.

I dont know your background Teno, however I can tell you mine.  I have played Eq1 since beta,  EQ2, WoW, SWG, CoH and many other games.  I can tell you that 99% of what makes test servers makes the live server.  The test server is not there to test to see if what is implemented needs to be changed or not.  Rather it is there to make sure there is no bugs in the code they put in that would break anything else.

"Considering we really just got attention from a dev last week and have a start to a fix soon. I think a thank you is in order for them to pick this up so quickly ..."

So you think I should thank them for ignoring us this long?  I should also thank them for the continued nerfs AFTER the "attention" ?

I have no desire to make an alt.  I came to this game with my friends and I enjoy playing with them.  To make an alt would mean that I would fall way behind them.  I have no desire to fall behind my friends and play catch up for the next couple months.

I'm with Teno.  Went from 24 to 28 (Harm) this weekend and I am just not experiencing the problems described by the OP.  Sure, my FD didn't work once against a lvl 32 4 or 5 dot, but I really didn't expect it to.  I may not be outdamaging the rangers or well-equiped warriors/dk's, but I don't feel that my damage is inconsequential.  I've been hearing these same criticisms for a long time.  When I was level 15, I was nervous about what I would find in my mid 20s based upon some of the postings I had seen.  Now that I'm here, I just didn't experience what some people complained about.  Maybe they had much higher expectations that weren't being met, but I just didn't see that the class was broken beyond playability. Are we deserving of some positive tweaking?  Absolutely.  Can Sigil nerf the monk into unplayability?  Of course they can, I just don't think they have yet and I don't see it happening with the changes in the test notes. 

I know some people aren't happy with the class and there are things that Sigil needs to fix about monks (broken stances, dps, counters, etc.).  I just wanted people looking at this post to see that there are others enjoying the class and do not feel that the monk is so gimped that it's not worth playing.  Knowing what I know now I still would have rolled a monk. I do not regret my choice at all.

I never said the class was unplayable.  What I am saying is that our dps is extremely lower then rogues and rangers.  Our DPS is equal to that of bards.  The ranger and the bard both offer a ton of utility.  The monk offers almost none.  Given those facts.. the monk would be the least desired class, out of all the offensive fighters, to pick for a group.  Why?  because there is nothing that we can do that another class can do better.  To me that is way underbalanced within the offensive fighter category.  To me, while it doesnt mean its unplayable, it does mean its broken.

Think of it as being a coach in the NFL.  There are 3 reciever positions open, but 4 people trying out for the position.  We have the ranger who runs faster and catches better. We have the rogue who catches equally well as the monk but runs alots faster.  We have the bard that runs equally well as the monk but catches alot better.  Then we have the monk who runs ok (not as fast as the ranger or rogue though) and catches ok (not as good as the ranger or the bard though).  So we have the ranger that out performs the monk in every category.  We have the rogue who out performs the monk in 1 category and is equal to the monk in the other.  We have the bard that out performs the monk in 1 category and is equal in the other.  Guess which class gets cut from the roster?

We have utility... As long as the healer gives us a rez stone, our functions are provide a medium amount of dps and clean up after a wipe in dungeons. :P

Actually here are our functions as i see them:

!) Add aggro to tank with Goading Slap. This helps keep the real dps classes from getting squished.

2) Assist the bard on really hard pulls in dungeons... We can't do it ourselves anymore, but we can help the bard. :)

3) Back up mezzing one mob with Nerve Strike and hope someone doesn't break it since it has 30 sec cooldown.

4) Cast Jin Surge whenever possible to give the real DPS classes more damage.

5) Use pushing Hands to knock mobs out of stances.

6) If the ever fix it... Use Waning Palm to take aggro off the asshat who overnukes or the healer.

See, we got a small amount of utility and the cleaning up from wipes is awesome in a dungeon... Groups will love you when you save them the huge hit they would have taken for rezzing at an altar.

That is of course if FD doesnt fail.  Usueally with a wipe means there were too many mobs.  So if FD fails once, do you think you will last 8 seconds to try again?  Also with the possibilty that even if it does succeed you may still be locked in combat with mobs camping you.  You can play around with it a little bit and hope to get out of it and reset the mobs but it does not always work.  It seems ok in dungeons a little lower level then you are... however usually you are going to be in dungeons equal to and higher level then you are.  The bug only seems to happen when you have 3 or more mobs.  I think what is actually happening though is that, lets say you got 3 mobs on you, 2 of the mobs have believed the FD and 1 of the mobs did not.  This bugs it into its current state of 1 mob camping you keeping you in combat and giving the message "everyone thinks you are dead'.  That is what I think is actually happening.  Which if it is... it goes back to saying we need a better FD against higher level mobs.  I have no problem of it failing to purple mobs, however mobs that are a level or two higher then you should be a better chance. IE whites, almost always. Yellows, most of the time.  Reds about a 50/50 if not 60/40 shot.

Your points...

1. Goading slap is pretty useless, the refresh is so long and does what? add 400 hate i think? 400 hate is equal to 400 dmg.  thats 1 ability from any class.

2. We shouldnt have to assist the bard on pulls in dungeons.  With lull they can useually do it themselves.  When they cant do it themselves, any class can assist the bard.  Useually it would be better for the tank to do that for the initial pull aggro.

3. Never strike is nice, I can agree on this one.  However alot of classes have a mez type ability including the bard which does not require you to be out of combat.  Why does ours?

4.  Jin surge costs too much with little return.. It can be used up by someones auto attack you know.

5.  How many times do you run into a mob that is actually using a stance rather then just being buffed?

6. Waning palm would be nice if it worked... again though, it is like goading slap... except waning palm adds 200 hate to yourself... which is just as equal to you using 1 ability.

So basically you can say that you are happy that your utility encompases holding on to a rez stone, just incase the group wipes?  Of course hoping that none of the above happens while trying to FD?

I will concede though that if they fixed all that is wrong with FD, that I listed above, I would be fine with our utility.

With regards to grouping, I have never encountered a problem in finding a group because I am a monk.  In fact, I usually encounter the exact opposite.  Groups love us because of FD.  Does it work every single time?  No, it does not.  What FD does is give groups a chance to avoid a total wipe.  I succeed at this a lot more than I fail.  Easily 90%+ success rate.  (side note: against the higher level multidot mobs I find myself fighting with groups, I don't wait until everyone is dead before I FD, I'll step back from combat early enough that I can get in 2-3 tries.  This almost always works.  When the healer(s) go down, the time to start FD'ing is usually not far off).  Everyone knows that FD is not automatic, but I find that it works much more often than not if you give yourself enough time to retry if it doesn't work the first time. 

As for utility, we provide some, but certainly not as much as other clases.  As a Harm monk, I'm pretty sure most people I group with are not even aware of the utility I provide.  Lowering mob damage mitigation by 15%, reducing mob damage by 50% for 8 seconds, pushing mobs out of stances, jin surging to improve group dps - these are all things I do.  Other clases when they add a buff, you see that icon for the next few hours, it's always there, everyone sees the benefit provided by the class that gave them that buff.  Monk buffs/debuffs occur in the middle of fights, people don't usually take the time to scroll over little icons that appear for a few seconds while fighting.  Am I the best puller? No, but I am very capable of pulling.  Am I the best mezzer?  No, but I have a mez.  On top of all of this, I am able to do decent damage (I agree it should be higher, but it is not insubstantial).     

You know a class has problems when there are abilities that never get used or don't work as intended.  The monk class certainly has its share of those.  But to say we are the least desired class or lack utility, that has just not been my experience.  This is exactly the kind of thing I worried about when I was in my mid-teens.  I was afraid that monks would be ineffective and I would have trouble finding groups because of it.  That's just not been the case for me.     

I went from 20th to 26th this weekend always fighting 4dot mobs higher level then me. In the ant mound then trengal keep.  FD didn't fail on me once.  I was split pulling with nerve strike and using it when the group wiped.  It even worked against the 5 dots in Trengal.  I did not have a problem except for the bug of having a mob or two keep me in combat on occasion. 
  I can't solo worth a damn, 2 dots bring me down to 1/4 health a lot but in general I was happy with the grouping experience.  We could use a damage boost.  I did have a few crits for around 3200-3300 but most are 1500 - 2200. 

Soluss my post was mean to be slightly sarcastic in nature however, here is what you have to look forward to...

1) FD2 is a 4 sec refresh so you get twice as many chances to fail before you die.

If you know your party is wiping back off about 15m from fight and FD there... much better success rate if you are not under the mobs, make sure party dies where it is and doesn't run over you.

2) Goading Slap 2 is 800 hate and does work fairly well if you use it near start of fight and tank is any good.

3) The assist the bard thing was mostly sarcastic as was the pushing hands and jin surge thing.

I am not happy, search previous posts by me and i have pointed out numerous things i find wrong with our class... I can't even solo 2 dots my level in mostly yellow gear efficiently, and sarcasm helps me deal with being a gimp. :P I love the idea behind the monk class, but think we need a major rework by Sigil. Was giving Clerics a significant DPS increase really more important than dealing with our stuff???

Well I am glad you dont have trouble finding groups.  I can almost never find a pickup group when my friends are not on.  As far as FD goes in dungeons... I know when to FD,  I know its not automatic and it shouldnt be.  The case you bring up is semi valid.  How about when you are wiping in an area that is bad and repops are happening.  You have to drag to a safe spot to rez people.  This is when it really becomes buggy and harry.  This is when you will encounter the things I see.

I am a harm monk too.  The utility you speak of.. yes 15% mitigation is ok but it hardly does anything really.  Solo a mob with it then solo the same mob without it and see how much difference it makes. Reducing mob strength by 50% for 8 secs ... can only be done if you are tanking and if you are lucky enough to parry and if that parry actually sets it off.. plus a high end cost so you have to hope to have enough end to use it.  8 secs is hardly worth it. Pushing mobs out of stances... how many mobs do you run into that are in a stance instead of just buffed?  Jin surge.. cost a buttload of jin... does pratically nothing.. you do know that an auto attack will use it up right?  Are you the best (insert all the the things mentioned here) , no you are not and you readlly admit that.  That is the problem, we are not the best of anything.  Every offensive fighter can do what we do and do it better.  That has been my complaint all along.  We are out dpsed and out utility by 2 of the 3 other offensive fighters.  We are out dps'd by the third and will probably be out utilitied by them soon.

We are the least desired offensive fighter .. its common statistics.. bards as good dps sometimes better, and have better utility.  Why pick a monk over a bard?  Rangers way better dps and way more utility.  Why pick a monk over a ranger.  Rogues way more dps and probably just as good utility.  Why pick a monk over a rogue?  Why are one of, if not the least played class currently?

Im glad you are having fun playing your monk,  I am too.  But you have to atleast see that we have alot of problems.  If they are not spoken about and/or remained unfixed, eventually we will become extinct.  People will eventually realize how much better the other offensive fighters are and you will find less and less monks and less and less groups for monks.

Ok i didnt realize it was sarcasm =)

As you can see from my posts, I completely agree that monks need reworking.  Some things don't work at all, aren't working as intended or are never used because they provide no benefit.  Even taking all of this into account, I like my monk, don't plan on rerolling and, most importantly, I know I contribute when grouped. 

Your FD example is a situation I have faced.  I am sure I have suffered more than one death because mobs continued to aggro after I succesfully FD and I wasn't able to succesfully re-FD to break their aggro.  For me, this just doesn't happen often to call it a huge problem.  It is certainly something I want them to fix, but I can play around it for now and would much rather have the Devs fix some bigger issues.  I die much more because of CTD's than I do because FD isn't working right.  As for the utility we provide, no I cannot execute a debuff that will cripple a mob or result in his death in 2 hits.  When I reduce mob damage mitigation, that means the entire party is doing more damage.  I agree it is not noticeable for any single hit, but an entire group doing more damage on each hit for the entire fight?  That is certainly noticeable.         

The thing that bothers me is when people that don't play a monk see the posts where it's one complaint after another about monks, their impression of the class is what is contained in those posts.  I think these types of posts also lead some lower level monks to regret rolling a monk and to give up on the class when there is no need to.  The complaints raised by many are valid, I just don't agree that it's as bad as some describe and that there is little good to be found about monks.  I look forward to the fixes and improvements I am sure will be coming, it will make my class that much better.  Until then, yes, monks have issues that need to be addressed, but we are still a viable class that (I find) brings benefits to groups.

I have a lvl30 monk on Flamehammer.  While I think the monk needs a little love, I certainly don't think it is as bad as people keep saying.  We certainly need our DPS enhanced.  We are currently above Bard, but we need to be a good bit higher.  I do not have trouble finding groups.  I have never been turned down for a group because I am a monk.  Nerve Strike is great.  I wish we did not have to be out of combat , but still is great.  I think they should change the cool down though.  It would be better if the cool down reset once the mob that was stunned was broke from stun. 

People say that Tiger Stance is broke.  Well I happen to be in Tiger stance 90% of the time, so it can't be all that bad.  I wish the endurance cost was slightly less, but still a great stance.  Harmonious stance needs some love as it has absolutely no use in battle and really only good for long travel.  Crane Stance needed to be nerfed a bit, but was definitely nerfed too hard.

They definitely need to put more monk weapons in the game.  All I ever find is swords and axes.  Why do fists and wraps and claws never drop?  And why do they never have dex and str?  So yeah, this needs to be looked at.

All in all, I enjoy playing my monk.  I like the FD ability and think it offers plenty of use.  I hope our DPS gets increased, and am anxious to see if the next patch actually brings any benefit to us.

Im not trying to debate you.  Nor am I saying the monk is unplayable. For the mitigation, i agree it is somewhat helpful.  However it is not much compared to what other classes can provide.  Try in group then if you want to debate that aspect of it.  In group pull a mob and use the mit debuff.  Then pull the same mob and don't use it.  Was there much of a difference? You say you feel you contribute to a group.  Sure you do.  The point however is that any other offensive fighter can contribute more to a group.  In essense saying you are actually hurting a group because they could have filled a spot with a ranger(more dps, more utility), a rogue(more dps, just as good utility), or a bard( same dps, more utility). Doing so would make the group much more effective then selecting a monk instead. See the problem?  We need to outshine atleast in one area to be a viable class.  Currently we do not.  Does that make us unplayable? No.  It does however make us way below the balanced curve. 

Do I want it to sound like noone should play the class? No.  Do I love my class and am I going to continue to play it? Of course.  That does not mean we don't need changes.  That also does not mean that if we dont get them I will always stay with the monk.  I am going to give them time to fix it and see how they play this thing out.  When I see that they are done with the class passes and no more is comming, if the monk still is not up to par, i will be leaving.  In order to get changes you have to let them know what is wrong.  They don't physically play these classes enough to see what we can. They need our input or nothing will ever be done.  I do agree that some people have posted in some ways completely exaggerating things to make it sound like the monk is completely unplayable.  However they have also provided alot of very good input in the same postings.  At this point all we have gotten is the nerf bat and everyone who plays a monk knows we need to be fixed not nerfed.

Honestly, you may want to step back and take a look at your posts before stating this. I think you have nearly 10 posts in this thread alone. We all get how disappointed you are in the monk class but your persistence is bordering on crusade levels now. You're certainly entitled to your opinion but posting it in basically every other thread is getting to be a bit much.

The "monks can't get groups" thing really needs to be put to rest. There are plenty other reasons that could lead to someone not getting a group over the fact that Monks currently finish 3rd in the melee pecking order. Besides, given the DPS model laid out by Talisker, a monk can even outshine both rogues and rangers with the right group and fast kill rates. And while this game certainly has it's share of min/maxers trying to form the "perfect" group in an effort to eek out the absolute highest possible kill/XP rate, there are far, far more people in the game who simply don't mind, or don't care about that kind of stuff. If you're of the former, more power to you, but that being the case, you need to accept the good with the bad then. For me personally, I'll take a player who is enjoyable and fun to group with any day of the week and twice on double XP day over a DPS king pushing the group every single minute to max his XP rate.

Everyone agrees that we need some attention. It's been stated ad nauseum. I'm sure it will continue to be stated even well after the proverbial "laserbeams from the eyes" (TM) patch. People just need to give the devs a chance to analyze the data and make the proper corrections. Besides, it's FAR better for us as players to have the devs review the data and make sound adjustments to our class the first time rather than make rash changes that risk overcompensating and getting reversed later on. We saw enough of that early on with EQ.