Vanguard Monks

So as we all know the "tanking" monk cannot function as a tank in the high end game. My question to you is what role would you like to see them play. With the upcoming class balancing I feel that this path may become the least popular because it really doesn't offer too much now aside from DPS. I can't promise that this is a possible change yet, but it is something I would like to push for if there is enough demand.

Don't touch them - If you like how the discipline functions currently

Hate Transferring Monk - Instead of tanking themselves this option would allow them to provide a tank with large amounts of hate or reduce another allies hate by a decent amount. This would provide a utility aspect to raiding that would help the raid deal more damage overall with less fear of aggro bouncing around.

High Melee DPS - My thoughts on Dragon monks will be to add a bit more elemental damage to their arsenal (such as making Corona add a flat % to secret damage etc.), figured maybe we could make Drunken Monks the masters of normal combat damage since they already have Errant Strikes and the advanced 1k fist chain.

Salvage some Raid Tanking - Give Drunken Monks the ability to tank at least trash mobs in raid situations for limited periods of time without being killed in a single swing.

Increase Raid/Group DPS - Give drunken monks more abilities such as Jin Surge that increase the overall DPS of a group or raid in bursts instead of long duration buffs. Allowing us fun and active utility rather than just something passive like a bard song. Although Monk damage will be top 3 in raiding, this would provide an increase to the raids damage providing us with a greater role or desire.

Other - Pitch general ideas such as above (not individual abilities) but new roles that Drunken Monks may fufill. We can go into specific abilities we would like to see once we have a better idea of what to expect in terms of attention.

Also any feedback after you cast your vote is more than appreciated. I want to know what you guys want and why.

Id personally rather not be a raid tank, just being able to function in groups is enough for me, which mainly requires
1) defensive stance to have + hate (not middle)
2) jeering kick to be more useful


I like hate transfer, something like eq1 where we can feed x amount of hate from each attack to the tank would be nice.  Require us to be in MT group or something so its balanced.  Or a group only hate reduction buff that effects casters AND melee, requiring us to be in the group. 


I like high melee dps, just dont want to see dragon become elemental reliant unless they get all 6 elements that way they can do the job right.  If they only get 3/6 elements, it seems like they would only be good 50% of the time. They do seem more melee oriented then dragons, so it wouldnt be horrible. 

Appreciate the input

If Drunken takes a DPS aproach I do think we should be carefull to not let it become higher DPS than Dragon. Dragon as you know has no unique untilities whatsoever.

So if Drunken goes DPS we should make sure they don't overtake Dragon DPS or even be equal to it, as Fuji stated making Dragon Elemntal focused means their damage would be situational as to where a Drunken's would be steady, leaving players to just roll drunk if they want to DPS due to no stipulations on their damage.

If we were to put Drunken as the normal melee DPS monk, Dragon would gain both elemental (more than just fire / ice) and the DoT DPS. I'd also like to see some aspects attached to the DoT's aside from just the damage. Such as reducing the monks hate or increasing the monks damage of a certain type while the debuff of that DoT is active.

Sounds good, I trust you. Just wanted to throw the aspect of becoming situational damage vs. equal non-situational damage out there.

I like the Tank aspect of the Drunken, but as far as raiding goes, it's not a viable option unless your tanking a caster.
I have Tanked small 2 group excursions into apw to pop minis for ore etc. it can be done with evasion over 65% w/out reed etc, just nowhere near the best option and a Parry sword is a must.

Granted aggro management can be done by a monk if he has to tank - All out Burst DPS and take the aggro in Offensive stance with mitigation penalty, or Midrange Haste stance for Hategain, Defensive Stance should be our Tanking Stance (Hategain added to the Slaps)

Monk mitigation just isn't up to par with plate and I don't believe they even considered Avoidance tanking an option for APW and beyond.

Just take a quick look at APW/Raid mob itemization, now look at the amount of plate gear with Mitigation on it as opposed to the amount of Medium armor with Avoidance / Evasion (think theres a Helm from Admiral, Boots From Zagius and Cloak from Essal). None of our Class armor has any evasion/avoidance, but it does have Damage stats.

The thing is the Drunken style doesn't really flesh out until you wind up with errant in the mix. I would hold with what suggestions you are going to put forward until the Damage fix / Combat changes are in and see where we stand.

Since Tanking is out I would have to go with DPS, Jin Surge is about the only group buff we need i think, (Just remember it works off who you have targeted defensive). Want more buff potential for a Drunk? Have him be able to pass out Stat Wine or Wine that applies a Short 1-5 min duration Damage buff or something, would fit the role of a drunk somewhat.

~wtb perma stun animation for drunks~

Drunken are the masters of Misdirection and lead the enemy to attack how they want them to attack,That said i would not mind seeing a few skill short duration raid buffs causing greater damage to a mob(please not as short as jin surge though where its wasted on petty attacks).They do this by forcing a mob to move in ways that opens areas where people can take better advantage of their hits on said mobs.
If this is not the path they end up going id like to see maybe a mix of hate xfer and better survivability in raid situations,even if it comes at a miner dps loss.When i made my drunken i made it with the thought that it would be a better surviving style monk over the other two.
Anyway just my 2 cents

I would tend to agree with the notion that making drunken monks functional as off-tanks in APW is not worth it.  I very much like the idea of them having significant agrro management abilities.  More important ever since the 30cooldown on force targeting.

I suspect if they had the skill set to do that plus one decent melee damage buff they could give to group/raid it would be just about spot on.

I agree with Kivik. I built my drunken monk as a survivability monk. Good for pulling on raids. Early preforce taunt nerf it was nice to tanks for small groups using Jeering kick to keep agro. It was really fun and alot of people were happy to have someone to tank for them.
I see it this way, Dragon should be extreme offense. If this means different types of elemental attacks/debuffs increasing his or decreasing the mobs damage so be it. Their AE attacks are lame for the most part. Take them out and give some meat.
Harmonious are the buffer/debuffer. Thats their can of corn. I wouldnt want to impinge on their role. I think their effect should be greater to be more effective but the idea of the style is excellent
Drunken should have high survivability. We used to have the ability to taunt all the mobs around us for 5 hits. I saved alot of groups hitting my invul telling them to run hitting that skill and letting them get away then FD. We lost that ability way back when. I think our invul should be the highest of the 3 with a quicker cooldown.
Our dmg should be between dragon and harm. Tanking in APW ..shrug itd be a nice idea....the 50% dmg reduction thing could be increased to 75% etc. Lotsa good things could be added to make Drunken the high survivability monk.
Im partial to drunken (art imitating life ? ) Anyway just my 2 cents

Drunken:
I like the thought of an Hate Transferring Monk.
Where the Martial artist deceive, lure and taunt his opponent into attacking the tank, as he deliver devastating confuseing hits from awkward angles..making the foe battle confused.

I see drunken as an easy going very tough adventure minded monk, who is able to perform the top most single hit damage of the three styles.

Dragon:
Dragon would be something like comming from an closed secret cociety made up from an fanatic brotherhood, surounded by mystery and fear. (picture them as Ninja's)
They will be the most deadly monk, and out damage harmo/drunken not from pure force like drunken, but from damage created out of DoT's 

well those that are asking for higher dps I hope understand that drunken is meant to be a survivabliity style. we will encourage you respec to dragon after changes and melee fix is done.

like to see more hate transfer off of goading slap

magnificent drunken style should increase to 25 seconds or so.

jeering kick ... ... something liek this maybe... debuff on targeted mob that makes the mob have %mitigation lose for X time due to drunken monk confusing opponent while tank is tanking not neccasssrily survivabilitty but

I mean i rarely use it. when tanking in g4 killing trash or in RI or similar area's i have no use for it. so not sure if it's a outdated ability since the force taunt change or not

fool hardy swagger ...thinking of riposte here.. on normal hits (no strikethrough or such ) you avoid the attack and return to opponent for anywere from half to full damage that they would have done to you. and gain a free defensive reaction ability with it. the one that reduces ther edam by 50% for next 8 seconds.
 once again I dont need the extra agro from this ability either. since the change fo force taunt abilitys


thanks for your time and any remarks. no I cant follow the rules yo laid out either sorry, the style does not need a revamp, just a tweakor two imo

Meiyo

edit
forgot to add
defensive stance needs the hate from other stance
defensive stance needs improvemnt as the harmonioius is just to close and perhaps better  in hte end.

Give Drunken monks more ripose type abilitites (these can even be bust type things) . This fits the misdirection that the style is supossed be using. And, could give viable and limited tanking under the right situations.

You could give them a bit more ability as a hate transfer monk but I dont see this as being a big thing as the tanks have pretty good ability to hold damage as it is (this could work better if there were two classes of force taunt and theit timers didnt cancel, a self and forcing the mob onto another class- Make a Goading slap like force target that only works on another target). 

In raids and the semi difficult group content being able to load up hate on a tank or remove it from others can be invaluable.  In group situations with multiple opponents it can be exceedingly difficult for a healer to not pull aggro.  In raids stuns/aggrowipes/etc etc. are commonplace.  The raids ability to preform often heavily depends on how fast a tank can build backup aggro repeatedly durring a given fight.

If your tank isnt building up aggo quickly then its not the monks fault (there are many factors involved not just aggro dumping), raids are often chaotic but this is part of the fun. No class should be dependent on another class for a "class defining" ability. Aggro dumping is a utility not a class defining ability. In every raid I have been on since APW release Aggo is a difficulty factor that the Dev's seem to rely on. Making Aggro manipulation easier is not a great thing for the game as a whole. Making this aspect of the game easier will serve to dumb down the upper end content quicker.

I stand by my statement of More Ripose type Abilities for Drunken Monks , forget any hate transfer, your idea of removing hate is a nice twist on the hate thing maybe make it more proactive and not a rescue ability. 

/new vote option  make drunken monk ultimate puller

Goals:
make him safest and FASTEST chain puller for raids/groups
make him able to split even raid mobs alone
make tanks love if drunken pull for them

Ideas:
safest ..fd,immunities(stun,dmg,etc),hp regen
fastest ... aoe lul/stun, ranged shurikens abilities like stun,slow

Stances:
off - +agro transfer to %td
def - ultimate pulling stance ...+speed +50%mit -80%dmg +immunity(stun,slow) +fast hp off combat regen in FD

Crazy funny idea about raid mob spliting:
Our monkey pet(10 sec auto immunity,no dmg just grab agro) will engage mobs,  so we have some time to split them.

Now if mobs can be luled/mezzed there is no need for slow split.

lol little sarcastic arent we puller ;-p

I would agree that it would be fun for drunk to have some more ripost type abilities but on the whole some stance adjustments are probably more important.  Arguably I would hope anything new they get would be useful weather they are in a tanking role or not, rather than be wasted in any position other than tanking/offtanking.  But that's me.

i just hope they nerf errant strikes. i know i said the "N" word about other monks, but this one ability is causing way too many problems and is resulting in all monks getting the nerf bat. if drunken is sposed to be the "tanking" monk then they should have the lowest dps, not the highest in the game by such a huge margin.

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Siago your post didn't seem to make any sense?  How would a monk tanking group content = devs wanting to nerf their DPS on raids?

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while monks cannot (and IMO should not be able to) function as main-tanks in the high end game we are already utilizing our monks for off-tanks on trash mobs if we are short on defensive fighters. i'd like to see this option for drunken monks strengthened by giving them one or two tricks to increase short term survivability. would also be nice to get agro management tools increased.

i picked my drunken monk for his ability to get and hold agro and being able to off/ tank if needed. that i can switch role is what i like about the style. i dont want to lose this to some dps flavour or to some buffing ability. least of all i want to give it up for agro feeding the tank. while this may grant me a spot in the raid, it wouldnt have much value in the everyday group content and be completely worthless when soloing. when the other styles bring dps and debuffing, which are equally useful no matter if solo, group or raid, drunken style should be equally viable and not only for raids. higher survivability could be just that.

Any of the light fighters if specced and geared right can serve as a tank/off tank in anything but the absolute most difficult group content or raid content.

If drunken become aggro masters able to remove, or add hate to different targets including themselves then it directly boosts their ability to hold aggro and thus tank offtank effectively.

Aggro generating moves will never be useful solo...that's a "duh" situation, rescues, hate giving, hate boosting are worthless in solo mode.  This is not a remotely valid part of your argument.  It would be like a pally complaining that he can't use his recues solo.

the comparison with the pally is a bit off IMO. hate and agro abilities are common and basic tools for defensive fighters. what is discussed here is not the core of the monk class, but the special flavour we want drunken monks to have. so if we want to compare tanks and monks we would have to look at the flavour of the class and not the core. for the pally the flavour would lie mostly in his healing abilities which again would exectly reflect what i wish for my drunken monk with some extra survivability tools.

but i wouldnt mind different agro managing abilities either. i just dont see how one would exclude the other. why not get both, a hate increasing or shifting skill that i can also use to rise my own agro AND some additional skills that allows me to increase my survivability for a short to medium duration.

Well it all comes back to balance and function really.

Having aggro utilities and notably powerful survivability would probably cost you somewhere in terms of dps.  As it stands I suspect that a refinement of your stances plus fixing and slightly retooling a few skills and giving more power over aggro management would give drunken the power to reliably tank in all but the most extreme cases if specced and geared properly.  Not sure how much more of tank you would want them to be beyond that?  If you want them remotely usable raid tanks it would cost somewhere else.

Some drunk monks would be peachy with that I suspect, others not so much.  But its all about finding the right balance.

I come to think that it would fit the role for Drunken's to be able to jump into the tanking role for a certain time when the tank's fallen. Give them an ability to snap aggro and tank even raidmobs for ... let's say 1 minute? In that time the MT should be up again and buffed to a certain degree.

monks are a medium dps class first and foremost, to allow them to tank raid mobs for 1 minute would require enough changes to drunken monk that they would most likely be over powered in groups/solo and would make the other 2 monks inferior.

I see them as great group tanks , decent raid pullers, and most valuable for their dps/agro management.


just my 2 cents

agreed fuj

is this the answer to the original question of this thread? or a summary of the current state of a drunken monk?

just as reminder, the original question was: instead of being a "tanking" monk in the future what role would you like him to play?

my answer was: i like the tanking aspect and want it to keep and rather enhanced instead of being replaced by something else.

Much of it depends on how you look at tanking really.

IMO drunken monks only need to have a bit more solid aggro to be very solid group tanks in their current form.

Fixes and hate transfer abilities would in effect make their ability to hold aggro concrete which is what tanking is all about assuming you can reliably soak the damage.  With the right gear a drunk monk currently can already take the hits pretty well.  A few tweaks would finish the job there and I suspect those tweaks would be primarily taken care of anyway when the devs go over monk stances in general.

To me it "seems" like you want a large boost to their survivability over what they have now.  I feel that would be less effective in helping drunken monk compared to being able to manipulate aggro to a significant degree.  Both in terms of tanking in group roles and for being more useful when not in a tanking role both in group and raids.

(side note if you know the tanks then you know that pallies "specilize in rescues" they get far more and far more options for them vs. the other tanks.  Much like the idea of giving drunken monks special aggro manipulation beyond the simple ones all monks get etc. thus the comparison to pallies earlier.)

Well i guess you have read my posts wrong then.
But i dont see tanking reduced to holding agro only. Being able to survive is the other side of the coin, so i dont want this to be completely neglected. And as i said, agro tools not going to do me any good while soloing. We have to keep all aspects of the game in mind, not only high end raiding. Also have to keep in mind the coming combat rebalancing which will drop our dps and have to keep in mind the proposed mob rebalancing which may drop our current survivability in relation to the opponents.

I dont want to compete with defensive fighers but in comparison to other chain wearers, yes i would like to have an edge. Fixes to our stances and some other tweaks may do the trick already, that i can agree with.

I always thought that making counter-attacks an important aspect of the drunken monk would help them in  solo, group, and raid scenarios.

I think Drunken monks should have a force-taunt that lasts for 2 hits, and is on a seperate immunity timer from the generalized one. In a raid, being able to take a hit or 2 off of the tank or person who drew hate would be very useful if the Drunken Monk had the survivability to last through 2 hits.

Adding in a counter attack that does damage based on the damage of the foes attack would also allow this to be a good damage dealing tool in a raiding environment, so not only would they be potentially saving the tank, they would be gaining a damage opportunity as well.

By also improving the Drunken's  hate-generation abilities that help the tank keep hate, the Drunken would be inadvertently be improving the raid's capacity to deal dps and heal w/ less chance of pulling hate, which would be their way of "adding dps," while Dragons take the direct, personal dps approach, and while Harmonious monks take the debuffing approach.

So, though I personally dont play a level 50 monk, I think taking the drunken monks in the "hate transfering, temporary tanking, counter-attacking" direction would be a solid plan.