Vanguard Monks

I have been reading posts by Fusoya and his friends saying they get 200k hits and thats its easily repoduceable etc. Im a level 50 drunken monk. I raid.  I feel I maximize every drop of damage I can  from my class and yet for some reason I have NEVER see a crit above 50k EVER. That includes using errant strikes and fists of celerity. Raid buffed im well over 900 strength. And yes we parse every raid. I am usually number 1 or 2 DPS wise for the raid. But its not from spikey damage its from sustained DPS in the 3500-4200dps range. I can bring numbers if you need them. Something you, Fusoya havent done.
So you saying it happens easily and that you can solo trash APW mobs isnt enough Im sorry. Post a video. Or at least describe what you are doing to reach these numbers. Then we can analyze where the problem is for ourselves.
You saying that you have identified the bug and and are recommending changes on our behalf scares the crap out of me. Up until your appointment to class lead Id never heard of you or seen you post here to discuss issues. The few supporters you have are your friends or guildies etc. This does not prove your credibility or that of your ideas/explanations.
So post details. Post a video of you or one your friends killing an APW trash mob in "5 or 6" hits and I'll start to believe you.
You keep saying theres a bug. You say it makes us overpowered. Ive yet to see any proof of it from you. None.
You saying so its good enough
Respectfully
Gang

At this point proof is irrelevant.  They will nerf everyone to do the same dps no matter what.  I still cant reproduce the thits myself and i still parse in the 5k+ range so I just accept that their are buffs/debuffs they arent mentioning, and said buffs/debuffs are the key factor.

I personally dont beleive a drop of the reason behind the nerf, or the whole "skills are having + damage added for each effect (stun, dmg, jin) etc."  To me I see exactly how the damage is added, straight to the melee damage, and modified from there.  But at the same time it doesnt matter, because they will change the system to how they see fit, nerfing everything and claiming its a bug, not matter what we post.  About now the only thing that would stop it is if silius, taliksar, tiraslee, and Phanthom all got fired and replaced.

Be that as it may I still want to see numbers. I want to know what sequence of skills used to produce the 200k hits every min and 28 secs. Again I want to see them solo an APW trash mob in 5 to 6 hits. Make a video. Until then Im dubious.It sounds like we have an apologist as a class lead. I dont want to be homgonized into melee DPS, interchangeable with rogues.rangers and bards. I do one thing, DAMAGE , thats it.

Gang

Iv never been able to produce a 200k pure hit but i have done 230k combined in under a minute raid buffed and on a raid debuffed X99 dunno if this helps at all

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii71/Jarr42/ScreenShot_00072.jpg[/img]](http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii71/Jarr42/ScreenShot_00072.jpg) (ftp://[IMG)

i can do alot of total dmg but i dont get those big hits. The monk dont get % based attack we get multiple attacks. Why wouldnt it apply to all those attack i mean it even says its suppose to. To me it sounds like they want it to add like if u hit a mob 3 times it wants the modifier added to the total dmg that the 3 hits did not added to each hit.
i still claim its just a nerf and they dont want to say nerf due to low numbers the game is drawing already

Here's some stuff I put together real quick. Don't have too many screenshots, but here's a couple.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm151/iamatoaster08/dmg.jpg
The top scenario (Dynamo x-92) is my damage rating without max str and missing a few buffs, but still over 6250 between main and off hand.
The Fengrot screenshot is the most recent.
And the Vicus one isn't the best but still fun.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm151/iamatoaster08/parsedmg-1.jpg
This is my damage parse on a Kotasoth kill.  Not sure if you can see it clearly but the top damages are...
- Yellow - Fusoya - 5,094,909
- Green - #1 Rogue - 3,616,877
- Pink - Harmonious Monk - 3,345,852

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm151/iamatoaster08/parsedps.jpg
This is the DPS charts for the Kotasoth kill from the damage parse above.
- Yellow - Fusoya - 6931
- Green - #1 Rogue - 4920
- Pink - Harmonious Monk - 4552

I see that kind of damage on Vicus when he drops his guard but still

Vicus as we know is irrelevant because everyone does crazy damage during rallying cry. However Im not disputing we can do good sustained damage. like i said im moderatly raid equipped and on my best day im at around 4500 dps over the course of a raid. BUT I never hit for over 50k in one crit and I surely cannot solo an APW trash mob and defintely not in 5-6 hits as you claim.
Like I said , Id like to see video on this or comprehensive screen shots.
Showing me multiple hits at 23k strung together is what monks should be doing that are well geared. Its our job.
Its not like we hit for 23k every punch. Most of my crits are around 10-13k with an occasional 20k hit. I am drunken monk also. Even fighting the Pharoah and activating errant strikes , fist of celerity and jot 10 secs into the fight I dont pull off numbers like that.
So once again I ask what strikes or combos are you using to garner this kind of supposed "uber" damage. Im not seeing it. And I really wanna know what strikes you use to solo an APW trash mobs in 5-6 hits .

Thanks in advance

Come on try and look at the big picture ones in a while.
I don't know Fusoya more than you, but what I do know is that online games is a huge industry, where big cash is at stake. Do You honestly belive that soe, the devs and every ones else involve would spent time, resources ect. in working close with some random 2.ed rank gamer?
Ofc. they whant the best, and as fare as the supporters of Fusoya himself, I belive they are the filthy few who actually love VG, and is able to look beyound the "me,me,me" thing.

What Fusoya is saying may be true. Im not doubting his veracity or skill as a gamer. Howerver, its one thing to make claims and call them facts and another to have proof of what you are saying. This will be a monumental change to our abilities and viability on raids and in groups. Its not alot to ask to for some concrete proof. I was in APW last nite and I can tell you that I cant solo trash mobs there. Much to the amusement of my guildmates.
We as a community are trying to fathom these impending changes. For Fusoya to downplay our concerns with no evidence other than his say so is frankly not good enough.

Gang

You mean his and my say so, cause I have said repeatedly that our drunken monk hits well over 200k+ and can do it multiple times durring a x99 fight. He posts over 12k dps on 99.

Even as a Dragon monk I do over 7k on 99 and I don't even use quickening jolt, I use frenzied.

It is very, very simple to see what is caising the gap in DPS. Wether it is a bug or was orginally intended but now revisted once they realized it is just to hard to get a handle on DPS with it in it's current form is irrelivant. It is the right thing to do, the changes will allow them to have more refined control over the damge being done to raid mobs.

And IMO a post calling out our Class lead is in poor taste. You could have easily just posted "I have been trying to reproduce the 200k+ hits and the soloing of trash mobs in APW but have not been able to. Can anyone please post either logs, a video or screenshots of them doing it?"

There is no conspiracy theory happening here, these changes need to be made. Two monks should not be the same as having 4-6 other DPS classes.

Please try to stay on point. Im trying to understand why you and our class lead feel we do too much damage ot how this happens. In your last post Draxs you say you can sustain 7k dps..and yer drunken monk 12k. Once a again you SAY that. I dont see you listing what abilities you are using to reach that damage.You say its very very simple to see whats causing the gap in DPS. Oh really? I dont see it. Cuz I cant reproduce it no matter what I try.Raid buffed im well over 900 strength and use an array of good weapons.
 I dont see any logs or a video or screenshots. I want specifics please. ie: boundless fist crescent kick fist of celerity etc etc. What sequence of abilities do you use to hit for over 200k ever 2 mins. Ive yet to see any concrete proof in the form of data other than now your and  Fusoyas' says so. Im sorry thats not good enough.
I want to understand this. I want to take it apart and analyze it so I can speak intelligently about it. I may see your evidence and agree wholeheartedly. But until this bug/issue is explained so the rank and file monk can reproduce it and understand it, its just words.
I am not "calling out" our class lead. Its his job to answer questions and help the community understand changes he is proposing or those that the devs have communicated. Ive yet to hear Fusoya complain about this. He's a big boy Im sure he can stand up for himself.
So Draxs and Fusoya how bout some real evidence.

In these games dating back to EQ its always the fast attacks that equal the most dps "Moss Covered Twig" anyone? Its easy to see that the mechanic could very well be broken especially with raid level buffs.

It seems that the damage everyone is getttng is based upon the buffs and skill combination and not just the skill. How about looking at the buffs and not the skills. If a monk cant pump out this type of damage alone, well then as they say "it takes two to tango"

It could be and probably is a buff stacking issues and its just easier to redesign the combat system than the buff system.

Thats why Im asking for in depth information. If I can duplicate the sequence of abilites and not get the same results then it has to be something else. I think Fujitsu brought up (when this first came out) that it might be an issue of buff stacking but that was quickly quashed.
So those of you getting 200k crits and soloing APW mobs in 5 or 6 hits please tell us the abilities you use and in what order. I will go to APW soon as you do it and test it.
If I and other monks cant duplicate it then we can look at gear and buffs and see how they come into play.
Just assuming its +flat damage being the culprit is a bit premature.
We need to break this all down. Heck go into APW naked wearing just a weapon and no buffs and see what kinda crits you pull off and what yer DPS is. Then add yer gear and repeat. Then remove the gear and get raid buffed and repeat. Then wear yer gear and get buffed and repeat.
This could be done in a couple of hours and actually give us real data to work with.
I really dont want to be adjusted in GU6 only to find out that it was buff stacking and not +flat damage. At the rate they fix stuff itd be GU9 before they could refix us.

Sorry for posting it but ...
In EQ all monks community was nerfed (famous monk mitigation nerf) based on top 1% of monks. That was bad decision and for SoE took few years to revert it. SoE told to us - the nerf not going to affect most of monks, but those 1% of monks. In fact, biggest hit was for mid and low level monks. Top monks stay where they was before the nerf.
Now, in VG, I really really hope I'm not going to be nerfed based on input from 1% of monk community (not sure about numbers, may be we are talking about 5-10 monks total). I probably mid level monk ( we raid Entry wing in APW). I'm afraid after the nerf I'll move to middle of DPS table, where top geared monks will stay where they was before - at top. And yet again SoE will miss a target.
But of course it's just my assumptions.
Sorry again to be negative.

I too was a Monk in EQ. The nerf decimated the monk class.Ellan was correct in that the top 1% monks they were trying to "fix" werent affected at all. The rank and file monk felt it greatly. This is why Im calling for open analysis of this issue. Its in our best interest that everyone in the community has the numbers/ tactics and information to do extensive testing. If we just jump to a conclusion that on the surface may be the culprit we may end up paying for it in the long run.

I to believe its something to do with stacking buffs. There is many bugs in the game due to buff stacking. I know buffs staced a certain way and your endurance bar doesnt drop. Tanks get more hps with buffs done in a certain order. These are bugs from buff stacking and i think that the dps prob could be the same thing. I consider myself doing pretty decent dps but i cant do over 200k in a shot. I can do 200k with the multiple attacks added up but not a single shot

I have actually stated a few times how it is reproduced.

Errant Fists+Fists of Celerity+Quickening jolt+ the Thousand Fists lines.

If you have read and understand Talisker's (or was it Tiraslee's) post about it on the main formus then it should  make sense to you how it is achieved.

Why be cryptic about it Draxs...i said ive used that very combo and not achieved 200k hits. So lay it out there and let us know...Plus i wanna know how you solo APW mobs in 5-6 hits? Ive read that post by the Dev and I dont understand how you can make 200k hits. So spell it out im a dope

I'm curious, do you guys consider the hits that show up in the log as "you quickly strike X, dealing Y damage" and "An errant strike hits X, dealing Y damage" to be separate hits?  Because those aren't actually separate, individual hits; they're results of the fists of celerity and errant strikes buffs.  They may show up as separate hits in the log but they are all part of the same, single hit.

I've been reading your posts and I can appreciate your wanting proof, but be sure that you aren't assuming that Fusoya and Talisker are fabricating things either.  Fusoya already posted screen shots for you that showed a 200k hit resulting from one attack and Talisker also posted information about what's happening in the code that they have seen.  Unfortunately, I don't think that you're going to get a look at the actual game code unless you get hired by the vanguard dev team, though, so we're going to have to take their word at some point.

Moral of the story is:  asking questions and wanting proof is fine, more power to ya, but if you automatically assume that the answers were made up, what's the point?  200k+ hits are happening, if you can't reproduce them then don't worry, the update won't significantly effect you.  (btw, I'm a harmonious monk and the highest hit i've ever done is around 50k I think)

Everytime I ask they say errant fists fist of celerity and jolt...then they allude to some technique or buffs or what have you that allows them to pull this off. Im not assuming they are fabricating anything. Im just saying better monks than I are incapable of duplicating what they are saying. So that leads me to believe there is something other than abilities, gear or buffs coming into play here. If its a superior way to play my class Id sure like to learn it. Thats all Im saying.
Obviously they say they are doing 200k hits every 2 mins or less....plus they say they can solo APW mobs in 5-6 hits please explain so i can learn how to do this too. Would help on raids greatly.
Yet everytime they post there are no specifics.

Your reply sparked a thought for me:

I wonder if the reason they are not revealing details on how to produce the 200k hits is because it falls under the category of exploit/bug.  I'm just speculating, of course, I don't know what's really going on, but it seems reasonable to me that now that they have identified this bug, they wouldn't want to disseminate it further to those who aren't already exploiting it.

The reason your post sparked this thought is that if you're fishing for a guide on how to hit for over 200k so that you can use it to further your raid's goals, that would remove a significant portion of the challenge of the content for your raid.  In any case, it's not something that your raid should be reliant on to succeed as it will be removed from the game as soon as the devs work out all the bugs.

That pretty much sums up the lack of very detailed examples. And is why I don't even use Quickening jolt personally.

I'm sorry if it's cryptic but I'm not personally going to post a way to accomplish something that is unintended. I can promise you I have seen the "total" damage from the hits exceed 300k in one ability, not adding up all the lines of text but the actual total which is posted as the last line of text.

Nothing else I can do for you though, just going to have to either believe those of us telling you it exists or not.

My best guess is its harmonious monk+bear shaman stacking -15% mitigation (minus 30 total), with max ac debuffs and rogue force crits.

That nets you 8 seconds of a mob with 30% less mit, and garunted crits on thousand fists/thunder fist.
Max + damage % buffs (belt of ages, paladin aura, bard song, cleric buff)  AND jolt/errant/quickening. 

Cant really test it till we get a harmonious monk and bear shaman, or an active paladin, but its worth a shot.  Although to hit a 200k crit, you would have to hit for 133k base damage on thousand fist.  Which is still 60k more then i hit for (only need +75% more dmg...) 

Well im about to deploy to iraq for another tour anyway so guess this nerf just helps me break away from the game even easier.

Last time I checked turgin mitigation reduction attack didn't stack?

Regardless of anything else people are correct who feel that its messed up for one dps class to be twice or moreso powerful than another.

Even non "uber" geared monks and rogues in most cases easily top charts by margins that are unacceptably large not just the top 1%.

That is rediculous and does need to be brought into a reasonable margin...though my fear is like most that it will shatter the classes in any normal non raid environment when the balancing act takes place for GU6.

Gears turn slowly when you are short on resources.  I doubt strongly that monks and rogues will feel functional compared to other dps classes in group and solo after GU6.  I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

As stated this will be "fixed" soon. I an tryin to tear apart the mechanics of a raid buffed monk and see whats causing the huge hits. As fujitsu says you still need a base hit of 133k with all the stars aligned to hit like you say you do every 2 mins. So share or dont share. shrug. However the community will have no real way to judge if what you are saying is in fact correct . Or, maybe its something else that someone else might notice that you havent.
Its obviously not an exploit because you admitedly use it . Heck even our class lead says he does it. So that logic kinda falls by the wayside.

I was asked to not go into depth of how it is reproduced until the issue has been addressed. I will say there is no big huge secret on how to do it. I've been able to solo certain APW mobs buffed in 4-5 since the 2nd or 3rd month of APW so it's not purely a gear based thing. Although now it can be done self buffed because of my gear. Also we do not reproduce 200k hits every minute or two, those are still a rarity, but the fact is it's possible. Most of my cool downs run around 90-120k depending on the mob.

The +dmg stacking issue is just being altered before class balancing is done, so that developers can more accurately adjust different classes damage without getting funky effects such as well geared / buffed monks hitting for over 5x what they should be. It's simplifying the game mechanics to allow more accurate tuning. Even if the fix reduced all of our damage to 10 hp a swing, it's going to get adjusted to where they want us exactly before it's sent to live servers. The changes will be tested with buffs, without buffs, with no gear, with crafted gear, with group'able gear, with raid gear, with the best gear available. They aren't just saying Monks are overpowered, nerf. They're simplifying game mechanics to allow more predictable results.

a few quick questions for fusoya, as taliskers bug expanation is still not making sense. first looking at his "Quickblade example:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We'll use Shank for our example. 

Shank - deals % weapon damage plus a small amount of bonus damage. 

Quickblade - causes the Rogues attacks to strike twice for a short time.

Our Rogue (lets call him Mardolmer, shall we?) attacks a bad guy with and without Quickblade.  For the sake of ease, let's say that Shank's base damage is 900 and that the plus damage portion is 100.  He also has 500 worth of flat damage from buffs.

    How it is supposed to work w/o quickblade - the damage is 900 (base) + 100 (bonus dmg) + 500 (flat dmg) = 1500dmg.

    How the bugged version works w/o quickblade - the damage is 900 + 100 + 1000 (flat dmg being applied 2x) = 2000dmg.  Here we don't see a huge difference; we are only getting the flat dmg one additional time.

    How it is supposed to work w/ quickblade - 900 + 100 + 900 (quickblade) + 100 (quickblade) + 500 = 2500

    How the bugged version works w/ quickblade - 900 + 100 + 900 + 100 + 2000 (flat dmg applied 4x) = 4000.  This amount is MUCH more than we expect or desire.

So if you followed me through all that, you see that Flat Damage + an ability with multiple dmg effects is a recipe for crazy dps.  Bugged DPS.  I used 500 flat dmg in my example.  This is a very conservative number compared to what players can get in a raid.
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1) is the combat bug reproducable using a 2-handed weapon? it appears by taliskers example here that it is applying the weapon dmg bonus to the off-hand weapon as well as the mainhand weapon. has this been tested? with the lack of high end two-handers for monks, and rogues being dual wield exclusive i can see how that could be overlooked.

2) it would seem to me that how it is sposed to work with quickblade would be:
=(900+100+500)+(900+100+500)
 since, if you hit the shank button twice you would get:
[button hit 1]
=900+100+500
[button hit 2]
=900+100+500

*NOT* as talisker is suggesting =(900+100+900+100)+500

can you explain why he is going with the later explanation?

3) the posted example on the combat log section is a critical hit (fusoya's combat log hit for 76k using errant + FoC.) is the 200k hit which taliskar keeps referencing a critical? epic? legendary?

4) how is the critical hit equation done? is the flat damage added in before or after the extra multiplier is added?

5) out of curiosity, why is there a 4k hit difference between the errant strike and FoC damage lines in the combat log posted. it seems like that is a significant difference.

any answers would be appreciated.

Just to clarify, I do not use and can't use it. I am a Dragon monk so while I gain some of the benifits I do not have errant fists and I do not use Quickening jolt.

I have seen Fusoya solo knights in library wing.  Once we even had a little race where he took one and the rest of the raid killed the other one.  We barely beat him.

edit:
Should have noted my main is Rokenn (lvl 50 bard) in BoW.  My Harm monk is currently lvl 49.

2) it would seem to me that how it is sposed to work with quickblade would be:
=(900+100+500)+(900+100+500)
 since, if you hit the shank button twice you would get:
[button hit 1]
=900+100+500
[button hit 2]
=900+100+500

*NOT* as talisker is suggesting =(900+100+900+100)+500

can you explain why he is going with the later explanation?


I asked the same thing, and their answer was a un appeasing "because thats how we want it to be now"  Basiclly your 100% right on how it should be (its actually pretty close to how it is atm), it just comes down to difference of oppinion.  Developers feel melee are too over powered so they find ways to nerf existing systems. 

The issue comes down to flat damage being added to melee damage.  For skills like boundless fist, its Melee + bonus damage, so if boundless fist hits twice, you get 2x melee + bonus.... and the melee CONTAINS the + damage.  For weapon dmg attacks (shank) its just adding the +flat to the end of the attack.  It should work the same for MELEE and WPN DMG based attacks. 

couple more quick questions:

6) i notice that talisker uses boundless fist to explain how an ability works, then uses thundering fist for the "unbalanced" example. can we see the "effects" list for thundering?

7) the line " used 500 flat dmg in my example.  This is a very conservative number compared to what players can get in a raid." bothers me. what are the kinds of numbers seen in raids when its all added up? what specifically is fusoya's flat damage when hes reproducably pulling this off. this number shouldnt be part of the "classified" info since the only people who can hit like this aready have the gear to pull it off and im not asking for buffs or timing/sequencing. im just asking for an actual number, not some vague "well its high."

8) are rogues seeing the same sort of "super-hits" that fusoya is (i.e. 200k)? are their attacks primarily weapon or melee damage attacks?

im not tryin to be argumentative i just do not think that this has been well explored or thought out. i could easily be wrong, however we have been given a very scanty explanation for what is happening, an explanation that several seem to have shot holes in. without information the skepticism that this is nothing but a nerf disguised as a bug fix will persist. not to mention that i personally do not think that the dev team nor blades of wrath has totally figured out the problem, and tryin to "fix" a problem based on an incomplete picture of that problem WILL create issues down the line.

im not saying it is easy. god knows that sigil was ineffective at management, and the game is so huge that sorting thru all of the coding to find out what is happening has got to be a nightmare. however, consider the very first question i asked. if the flat damage is being added twice to each attack because of dual wield, then nerfing the attacks in general cripples two-handed weapon use (which may or may not be effected by the bug.) it also drops that massive 200k attack down significantly simply by changing where a parenthesis lay in an equation. looking at small, simple changes is always preferable than saying well we are going to add yet another factor into an already complex problem and hope it works.

1- Dual weilding and 2 handers have the same effect in this game. It's not like everquest where abilities just use your main hand weapon, it combines the two into one, which is the same as a 2 handed weapon. The only thing that changes is the off-hand receives a lesser damage bonus (33%) so that when combined with the main hand (66%) its not completely overpowered compared to two handers.

2- Shank
**Talisker may have listed this wrong and the source of the confusion, this is what the ability reads**
A finishing attack that viciously stabs your opponent twice in the back, inflicting massive damage. Must be executed form behind the opponent and while wielding a piercing weapon.

The ability stabs twice (not clicking the ability twice) without Quickblade. Quickblade turns 2 into 4, so the bonus damage is applied 4 times.

3- The picture screen shotted on Kotasoth is an epic crit, but pictures such as my Fengrot one earlier in this post is a normal critical hit. The Kotasoth one was simply the first one since I started working on the post that I screen shotted.

4- It's added before the critical hit is factored in. Critical hit will always amount to 1/3 of the total damage of an attack. As the formula is 150% damage. Epic is 400% and Legendary is on a dice roll of how many times it can be multiplied.

5- That's an example of the bug. Errant Strikes is factored in first, then FoC is working off of the modified damage gained by Errant Strikes generating in average a fairly larger number.

6- Boundless fist only uses 1 'effect' because it's 1 swing in 1 attack. Thundering Fist uses 3 'effects' because it is 3 swings that total to 1 attack.

7- I have no clue how high it can get in the perfect scenarios honestly. But, if you saw the screenshot of my attack rating it was over 6250 without max Str and missing a few other buffs.

i just highlighted the point im refering too here. Quickblade causes the ability to work twice. which would be the same as hitting the button twice. so with quickblade it should be the damage you get from the ability, (900+100+500)x2= 3000, NOT as talisker is saying (900+100)x2+500 = 2500.

the 4x is screwy i agree, but if we go by taliskers example this isnt a bug fix, its a bug fix +extra nerf which isnt necessary (at this point.) fix the bug, re-evaluate it before gu6 and go from there.

/editing because i wasnt clear on the point i was making.

so your normal, non-QJ, non-FC, non-ES, non-epic crit thousand fists hits for about 8k? am i correct in pairing down your epic hits and special attacks?

Regarding Quickblade, ES, FoC they allow you to swing extra giving up a fraction of your damage in exchange for speed. So you swing your weapon twice but do not apply all the other modifications until after both swings occur. You swing twice, not deal double damage.

Normally without cooldowns I'm between 15-25k with any of the Thousand Fist chain abilities.

I can see how its possible, but it must be hard to coordinate all the required buffs to come together just at the right time.

not as hard as you think. in no apw gear and simply macroing QJ and FC in i can hit for 21k or so. given Errant (im harmo) that would turn to about 42k. add an epic crit in and your at 160k. thats not counting jin surge, nor is it counting paladin aura, or secret of transcendece which are both % modifiers. so 15% and im at 184k in pre-apw gear.

my problem at this point is fusoya's last comment. that is not how the tooltips read, its not how the abilities work. the way you are starting to twist words to fit what sony wants you to say you should be working for the white house or the clintons.

oh, and some hard numbers for those "average" monks like me, ill try to format it as a table here, based on my stats and raid buffed, w/o jin surge:

              CURRENT              NEW
TF                5289                  3920
FoC             10578                7158
ES               21156                13630
QJ               42312                26577

now, according to taliskar, unless you are hitting those 200k hits you wont notice a difference. i beg to differ. oh and adding in the bonus per "extra" ability? you get 3920, 7840, 15680 and 31360 respectively. that is with adding in the flat damage once per TF attack instead of just once.

Twisting words would be saying "unless you are hitting those 200k hits you wont notice a difference", when in actuallity he said you would not notice as large of a difference, which is 100% true.

You say Fuyosa should work for the whitehouse or the clintons, I think you should work for the Enquierer, with all your conspiracy theories and whatnot. Fuyosa, myself and many others have repeatedly explained why this fix needs to happen. Take a step back and think about the good of the game and stop worrying about your particular class or whatevet grudge it appears you are holding onto.

For the Dev's to ever accurately and effectively be able to push out quality Raid content they must have firm control over DPS. That's not going to happen when some classes are accounting for 2-4 melee DPS classes. Raids will become either unbeatable by those who can't reproduce the damage being refferenced or trivialized by those who can. Stop focusing on the numbers and focus on the goal.

I'm not sure why you can't see the obviousness of how true the above statement is and I'm personally done trying to explain the common sense behind it.

First off you are wrong in how Errant strike/fist of celerity works.

It adds an extra swing, not doubles your current damage.  JOLT doubles your current damage.

TF - 8k
FoC- 8k +8k
ES+Foc - 8k+8k+8k
ES+Foc+jolt - 16k+16k+16k

So under the current system it would be more accurate to say.

              CURRENT              NEW
TF                5289                  3920
FoC             10578                7158
ES               15156                13630
QJ               30312                26577

my problem at this point is fusoya's last comment. that is not how the tooltips read, its not how the abilities work.
[/quote]

All that im saying by that is that the original coders took shortcuts to reach what appeared to be the same goal. The error in this was revealed with the release of raid content.

again i agree the tooltips read that it applies to ever attack which is what its doing and SOE is saying its a bug that needs to be fixed. To me sounds like they just want to change it and make it only apply at the end of the multiple attack.

Look, instead of calling it a bug fix lets call it what Draxs and fusoya are alluding to. Its a way for the Devs to get control of DPS. There is no bug. They want lower melee DPS to achieve their ultimate pecking order goal. ie Sorc top of the food chain all others come after. So lets call it what it is. A melee math revamp (resulting in drastic reduction thru all levels of melee) that will suit what SOE wants. For some reason Fusoya has bought into this. Shrug, i rememebr when you did a search for a rogue or a monk back in Dec 06 or Feb 07 you might see 10. This will have the same effect. Especially since most people dont read these boards.Nor do they frequent the OVF. All they will see is a drastic reduction in their chars DPS and leave. This game is on precarious ground as it is. To make a monumental change like this with out being absolutely sure you have "whats wrong" is a big mistake.
Like I said Im a drunken monk. I have all the same skills you do Fusoya. I get all the buffs. My gear may be less. Im pretty dang good at my class. Try as I may I cant hit like you do ...nor can I solo any mobs in APW.
Id sure like to see you do it. Racing an entire raid and you almost killing faster than them (shakes head) .

I've  beaten them a few times hehe.

But the devs haven't sold me any ideas or concepts, I was the one who sought them out and explained to them what was happening with our abilities that was allowing me to solo mobs I shouldn't be able to and produce hits harder than they are supposed to. They aren't touching this aspect until the patch that pertains to class balancing anyway. So whether it gets changed or not, our damage is going to be where they want it in the end.

I made the post and submitted it to Talisker who altered it and asked if it could be made an official post with recognition given to me for working on it. I just wanted people to be aware of the bug, whether it gets fixed or not doesn't effect us other than they will have more control over our DPS changes in the future. Our damage was going to be reduced regardless, but instead of hot fixes every time new content is added, monks and rogues will now be adjusted properly. If anything I think this being fixed prior to class balancing benefits the Monk community to prevent all our abilities from getting reduced to compensate for 1k fist and the cool downs.

I don't see any reason to fear this DPS bug fix at all. Every raid need good gamers and if u master your class, u will allways have a decent raid function to carry out.

I belive that a highly motivated player, who is having fun and stay focus all evening. Can match any bored well equipt  super overpowered class player, who is waching telly with one eye and chatting with the other.

Dont ever underestimate an enthusiastic gamer regardless of the class he plays, he might out top You on the Damage/Healingmeter. Why? Because he is highly motivated, stays focus and is enjoing himself the hole evening

Thats all well and good if your invited into the raid...Group 4 sucked for a long time as a monk. Plenty of guilds dont pull with monks. What do we do for a living? DPS. If we cant fulfill that role what will we do then? Perma FD for wipe insurance? all become Harmo monks and "debuff" the mobs?  With your adjust ...(which I grant I havent seen, just going by history) will adjust us right into group 4 or beyond.
Well at least the rumor is  that group 4 will now become viable because melee DPS will be so pathetic.
Ooooh look raids working as intended.
And I still do not understand why you cant explain what the bug is.

well, if whats good for the game is whats good so the high end raiders can get more content... vanguard is gonna have an awfully short life.

I see a lot of horse's dungs in the devs' arguments. If the tooltip says an ability allows you to swing twice, there is no mechanical reason why it should not deal double damage. There is, however, a meta-gaming reason - devs wanting control over DPS.

I am still of the opinion that what should be fixed is not us, but the buffs that lead to the overbloating of the damage. I still haven't seen a logically consistent argument against that stance.

Anyway, who cares. I'm done with Sony. See you guys in another online lifetime...

Agreed, i personally am already leveling a shaman and psi to 50 incase monks become obsolete.  I enjoy raiding but if I will be benched then ill find a way into the raid with a more usefull class

Agreed started playin my wolf shammy again level 34 woohoo. Nice DPS, heals, runspeed, stealth, spell dmg, debuffs and slow. Oh can rez and call people too. Gotta like that

Few quick factoids on how monks dmg currently works.

First, Thousand fist is (melee +176 )*3

As per Fusoya's post at the monk site, when he gets his raid buffs, his main hand/off hand dmg are as follows (theres a ss )

Main: 4582-4675  (4628)
off: 1578-1590   (1584)

So doing simple math to determine how much damage a single thousand fist will do with buffs.  ES is errant strike, FoC is fist of celerity, and jolt is quickening jolt
Base: 14412+ 5016 = 19428
+ES: (14412+5016) + (14412+5016) = 38856
+ES&FoC: (14412+5016) +(14412+5016) +(14412+5016)= 58284
+ES&FoC&Jolt:(28296+9768) + (28296+9768) + (28296+9768)= 114,192

With crit (1.5*dmg): 171,288.  Thats the magic 200k crit they were talking about all right.  And that was just with me averaging numbers and not using the max.



The bug (the claim as per taliksars post):
 Total Damage = (Ability damage + Flat Damage Buffs) * % Damage Buffs

How it actually is:
total damage = ability damage.
Ability damage (if based on melee dmg) = melee dmg +x
Melee damage = ((weapon dmg + str +flat dmg) * %dmg buffs )


Claim 2:
Boundless Fist - 6 effects (4 with can gain flat damage)

    * 1 effect for melee damage plus dmg
    * 1 effect that restores jin
    * 1 effect for melee damage plus dmg if errant strikes is active
    * 1 effect for melee damage plus dmg if Celerity is active
    * 1 effect that deals additional damage if the opponent is dazed (weakness exploit)
    * 1 effect that removes the dazed weakness from the target
    * 1 effect that adds the weakness enraged to the target

Boundless fist: Melee +174
With the above example, that's (4628+174) + (1584+87) and appears as (4802+1671) in the actual combat log.  So wheres the extra damage they claim?  According to them, it should be added 4 more times, which would in theory make the attack over (7000+2500) which is down right false. 

The actual issue:
Skills like quick blade and fist of celerity "strike twice". What does that mean, well as you see above, it is the equivalent of if you pressed the attack button twice.  The claim is that the flat damage is being multiplie, when it isnt.  The flat damage is being added once to each "strike" so your attack may have 2 times the flat damage, but that is because it is a double attack and each attack receives its individual flat dmg bonus.  This is due to how flat damage is added to melee damage directly and then modified with buffs.  A fully raid geared/buffed monk has ~100% dmg mod runing full time.  That already doubles the flat dmg mod, then you add in FoC and it takes that doubled flat dmg, and makes it hit twice, appearing like it is 4x the intended flat damage.  then with FoC and ES, that 2x flat damage is hitting 3x, so it appears like 6x the flat damage.


The fix:
To apply flat damage at the end of attacks instead of adding it to melee dmg.  So instead of being
Melee damage = ((weapon dmg + str +flat dmg) * %dmg buffs )
now it will be
Melee damage = ((weapon dmg + str +) * %dmg buffs )

Then the flat damage will be added after the ability damage.  This isnt a bug fix, this is a flat out nerf.  THey can call it what they want.  Overall this lowers melee dps and allows them to be on even grounds with casters.  So instead of just caping + flat damage to the one buff with the most +flat damage, or making a max +flat dmg cap, they are instead making it so overall melee damage will be lower. The could of also given us the same cap as casters of a max of +40% dmg rating. 

With that i leave you guys.  Ill still play vanguard but this whole lie and nerf is enough that i no longer will be active in the monk community nor do i wish to be.  Ive recieved rude replies from developers flat out bashing me on the offical forums and in msn conversations where i tried to get clarification. 

Its obvious they only care about a small group of people and with that i will let them do what they wish because it stoped being our game a long time ago.

i just love the "bug" fix here. i mean it fixes so much! like how we are going to have to be nerfed again in 6-months when multiple swing attacks become overpowered again. or when they realize multiple swing attacks are the reason that Drunken has such a HUGE advantage over everyone else.

instead of fixing the problem they have simply nerfed everyone, and will have to nerf again in the future to fix what the problem actually is.

of course this is all tinfoil hat stuff, since if your not in the top few guilds you must be an idiot and not understand whats going on with the game mechanics.

This is precisely correct.  That's why it drives me insane when they just INSIST on calling it a bug.  It insults anyone with 1/10 of a functional brain.

Its a change to a long standing combat mechanic, its that simple.  Why?  Because they would have to nerf too many other abilities (which as pointed out they will probably still do anyway).  They feel this is the best way to reduce extreme monk spiking in damage on multihit skills.  There are MANY ways they could have gone about it, still this may very well be one of the better choices, bug or not its hard to argue that it hasn't gotten out of hand on raids.

But its simply retarded that they want to call everything a bug.  "Oh buffs are stacking a certain way that has made balancing x thing difficult...ITS A BUG NOW!!!!"  Can't wait to see what new thing becomes a "bug".

Fujitsu
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     Re: Im sorry I need proof Fusoya
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2008, 10:32:26 AM »   

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With that i leave you guys.  Ill still play vanguard but this whole lie and nerf is enough that i no longer will be active in the monk community nor do i wish to be.  Ive recieved rude replies from developers flat out bashing me on the offical forums and in msn conversations where i tried to get clarification. 

Its obvious they only care about a small group of people and with that i will let them do what they wish because it stoped being our game a long time ago

sorry to here bout all that fuji  u deserve so much more respect than that

and as far as u not getting involved anymore please do stay.... away they dont deserve players like u man

everytime a new monk would send me a tell bout monks i would tell them come here cause u always had nice write ups that they could scroll thru to  learn bout the monk class  and styles

so to you fuji my brother farewell and thank you for bein so involved in the community.

i cancled my account may 5 was think bout comming back but after  what u been thru  i'm done with this dead horse

Sadly this is the state of the game for Blood Mages as well.  Elitist thinking from developers who live in a bubble, led by a producer who thinks nerf is just a brand of kids toys.