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Title: Trouble Incoming Post by: Beowulff on April 23, 2008, 08:30:49 PM Maybe our new raiding class leader can let us know how bad this is going to be?
This is a post from the rogue class leader ... "As i am sure a few of you have seen on the official forums the whole debate of melee power. Yes the devs are looking into melee dps now that they have nearly completed the vast majority of the revamps for classes. As a base unbuffed we are fine on dps but its when we are fully raid buffed is where there devs are looking at we are to high. Nothing is final on what is being done with it. the devs are still working on things and none of these changes will be rolled out for a while. The class leads will be going back in for dps testing again. For the rogues we are not far off base its not going to be a major adjustment. When its all said and done as i have always stated. Rogues will be number 1 in melee dps. Please dont confuse that with overall every class, its only in melee dps. I know there are those of you that dont agree with that. But thats always been the vision if you can call it the vision. Talisker knows we have to have high dps for our class thats why it will only be a minor adjustment. When i have full details of what the plan is i will let you guys know but for now its way to early in the ordeal to know for sure." "Well there not going to touch any of our skills. they found a bug , +flat damage buffs are only supposed to be applied one time for each attack Instead they are being applied to each effect within an attack. In the case of Shank/Shiv + Quickblade it is being added 4x for each attack which is causing the dmg spike, Monks are getting it added 9x per attack. This bug effects Rogues, Monks, Paladins and Tuurgins." Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 24, 2008, 08:56:46 AM I think its hogwash personally. Bug my ass.
They are saying skills like iron hand +200 melee dmg should only be applied once per attack, So they want all + dmg (not sure about str) to add only once, so even though our melee dps is what it is, they are finding a way to nerf it and change the math just so we do less. Its not a bug. +86 dmg adds +86 to main hand and 43 to off hand. On thousand fist they want it to be so that that 86 is added after everything. So intsead of having (2.2k melee dmg +168)*3....they want it to be (2k melee +168)*3 + 86. Aka they want to take the + dmg skills and instead of adding them to melee dmg, just add them to the ends of the attack. Dual wielding: main hand =1400, of=800, totall melee dmg = 2200 Dual wielding without the+86: Main hand = 1314 off hand = 750, total = 2.1k Once you factor in every (iron hand, and str) it will be more like main hand = 500, off hand = 250.....so thousand fist would then be (750+168)*3 + 200 (iron hand) +86 (bm symbio) + 700 (str) .... for a total dmg of 2.2k currently its (2.2k +168)*3 = ~6-7k Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Jaoust on April 24, 2008, 01:10:04 PM yeah thats pretty lame. I kick for 2k with flying kick and theres hardly any cooldown....
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fusoya on April 24, 2008, 01:20:46 PM I'll be submitting a detailed post regarding this topic very soon. It's finished just awaiting approval to post it.
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Khana Kopnisien on April 24, 2008, 03:42:42 PM Rogues have totally different formulas for everything, as most of our finishers are still melee + X as opposed to 300% weapon / 400% weapon like other melee classes. You can't understand Iron Hands' usefulness without discussing our damage formulas, based on melee damage + X. Aren't we supposed to be the kings of sustained DPS, anyway? And isn't a formula of melee dmg + X representative of that flat damage scale without big spikes? Either they scrap that idea and uniformise the formulas across the board for melee and ranged to all have 300% or 400% weapon damage + X, or they think about it and come up with a rational "fix" for once.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Thousand fists is the ONLY finisher that uses the 300/400% formula, and it's on a minute reuse timer. Like Rogues, Rangers and Bards don't have 6k abilities that can be used every minute. Keep it real. And to finish it off... I really don't see why Rogues should be the masters of melee damage. Monks have nothing else to offer, but Rogues do. We should be dealing equal DPS, more or less. I call bluff on this one, too. The reason Rogues and Monks are about where they should be and the others aren't is simple: aggro management. No more, no less. Fix other classes' aggro and you'll see similar damage numbers. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 24, 2008, 06:21:29 PM Tech. thousand fist doesnt use a true 300% forumula, I guess you could say its 300%( melee dmg + 168)
Ill hold off though until i see exactly whats coming, but i agree 100% khana that agro generation is the real problem. As for rogues/monks dps im torn. Rogues require the back of a mob and monks can drop 100% agro, so if it was me i wouldnt mind rogues being higher since they dont have the luxury to drop 100% agro every 2 seconds. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Thorius on April 25, 2008, 08:07:32 AM a rogue can force so much more hate then us and they still get alot of agro reducers. On raids I hardly ever see a rogue get agro. A monk cant really pull APW without another FD class so if they are going to put us lower in dps what function are we going to serve. I just dont see this going well for the monk. If they fix mobs to were they dont instantly run back and reset and the monk can be considered a viable puller then i wouldnt mind a small cut in dps.
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fusoya on April 25, 2008, 12:31:25 PM An official post regarding the issue will be going up hopefully at some point today or tomorrow. It explains in detail the causes, the changes, the process and the intended results.
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 25, 2008, 01:34:16 PM I think it goes without saying but that post cant come soon enough :-p
I personally would have liked it to have been posted weeks ago when they first found the bugs so when posts started to appear about the melee re-balance, it wouldn't have been 2 weeks of ZOMG we will be nerfed, Im very interested to see these so called bugs. Who knows they may be actual bugs but I hold the rite to comment further till i see them ;-p Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Uppercut on April 27, 2008, 06:27:13 AM When it comes to usefulness in raids I'd say that a Harmonius Monk is equally helpful when comparing
with a Rogue during the actual encounters. The fact that we also can single out most anything with a little effort makes us one of the most important classes in the raid. I dont want our DPS to be any lower, but wouldnt mind coming in third compared to rangers and rogues. /Uppercut Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Kivik on April 27, 2008, 09:15:17 AM I think its wrong for rangers to ever be ahead of us in the dps area.
Rangers can buff thier groups with at least 3 raid benifical buff types,spot heal any player,range dps better then monks and already get better Itemization via weapons and overall gear drops(ie they dont share 80 pct of drops with a healer type) To give rangers all of that and then out dps us i think is a slap in the face to all monks. Sure we can pull better(though it really takes 2 monks to do this properly and be efficiant. Just my 2 cents Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Ronmaru on April 27, 2008, 09:50:22 AM To be fair the ranger heal is trivial enough that it really doesn't provide a significant edge in the vast majority of group and raid content, its nice solo and that's about it.
Additionally, only one of the ranger buff (the 5% crit bonus) buff is truelly valuable. And they have a little in the way of debuff. Their ranged attacks if built correctly for it are simply excellent though I would agree. And so yes that flexability should cost something, but they shouldn't be "that far" behind monks. People want rangers in groups typically for the same reason they want monks and rogues, DPS. I have yet to hear someone say "OH thank god! Ranger buffs and heals!" ;) So it would make sense to keep all three relatively close in the grand scheme of things (granted with rogue on top, followed by monk followed by ranger followed by bard). My opinion of course. :) Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fusoya on April 27, 2008, 12:05:00 PM Rogues and Monks will be the highest melee damage, followed closely by Rangers.
Keep in mind the highest DPS class will change constantly based on the encounter. No one class is going to be hands down highest DPS every fight. An update regarding the post... We are still waiting for the final approval before it goes up. I was hoping it would be in by Friday night, but I'm going to try and make sure it goes up Monday. I think most of you will be fairly relieved after reading it. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Kivik on April 27, 2008, 05:29:07 PM Great to hear from ya on this Fusoya,I am glad to hear that Rogues and monks will be in their position for melee.
Im sure we all look foreward to the post you are awaiting approval on. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 27, 2008, 08:20:33 PM Im just wondering, if bards will have their dps nerfed. Because if we are being brought withing their dps range, and they keep all the utility , theres no need for rogue/monk over bard ;-p
just a thought, since people keep saying bards dps is where it should be, but only rogue/monks dps is being lowered ;-p I dont see it as too fun to be the same dps as a bard who can do so much more:-p I know we should still be top, but ill be suprissed if whats planed actually ends up working out correctly the first time ;-p Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: BlackBelt on April 28, 2008, 01:37:11 AM The perfect news to switch on Age of conan :knuppel2: Sadly no more FD loving there :P
Anyway, DPS isn't an issue here nor our main job on raids so /ignore any nerfs! What i think they will do is the following : Rogues 2.5k Dragoon 2.3k Drunken 2.1k Rangers 2.0k Harmo 1.8k I take not credibility on that info :2funny: Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Ronmaru on April 28, 2008, 06:30:22 AM The perfect news to switch on Age of conan :knuppel2: Sadly no more FD loving there :P Anyway, DPS isn't an issue here nor our main job on raids so /ignore any nerfs! What i think they will do is the following : Rogues 2.5k Dragoon 2.3k Drunken 2.1k Rangers 2.0k Harmo 1.8k I take not credibility on that info :2funny: Just curious, but what is your reasoning to put harmonious monks below rangers? I would suspect its more likely to have drunk and harmonious be very close to each other when all is said and done with dragon a bit higher and rogue a bit higher than than. Ranger should be just barely below drunk/harmo. People can claim rangers have utility and flexability to flip between ranged and melee...and that's true. But its typically not taken into account when picking them for a group/raid so much as "we need more dps". Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 28, 2008, 07:30:42 AM The real question is how can you honestly say dps isnt our main role and to just ignore nerfs ;-p
I mean maybe you dont, but in my raids im in the top 2-3 dps classes every time. Pulling is so easy that id hardly call it a role. I can literally teach a necro and disc to do my job even with their inferior feign deaths. O and i will be very surprised if drunken ends up below dragon dps, that currently would require a lot of skill changes. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Zerathule on April 28, 2008, 08:10:21 AM My guild already has 3 to 4 bards each raid, and could have 6 actually.
The fact that the GL is a bard doesnt help, but if we're nerfed, why would a 2nd monk be taken in a raid if you have more bards available ? Even a rogue in fact. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Thorius on April 28, 2008, 09:35:13 AM well i guess SOE is just gonna slap the monks in the face again. Pulling can be done by more classes then just a monk so cant really say thats the monks role. A ranger has very good dps the prob is the poor agro reducer. Fix their agro reducer and you fix there dps IMO.
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Draxs on April 28, 2008, 09:40:45 AM I just don't understand where the complains and the doom and gloom is coming from.
We are projected to be in the top 3 (2nd I think) in melee DPS. We are imvaluable as pullers. Other classes can do it but nowhere near as efficently as we can. I can't see why anyone has a problem with the propused corrections, and yes I say corrections cause thats what they are. Our dps is not intended to be what it is ATM and it's simply being corrected. I for one and glad that we are going to still be in the top ranks when it comes to melee DPS. I think it could have been much worse and I'm happy to see that it isn't. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 28, 2008, 10:07:01 AM To each his own draxs, ill reserve my final judgement to see what these "corrections" are.
You are allowed your oppinion and I mine. Personally i see cookie cutter classes as a nerf. What i personally see happening is this. Monks in raid for pulls, you get to a boss. If its a high dps mob -Swap in extra sorcs/rogues/bards. If its got a stance to push - swap in rangers (their stance push is 3x as effective) If the mob is immune or highly magic resistant-- swap out casters Then you can add monks I hardly call cutting a classes dps in over half a "correction". To me thats a bit harsher. Again ill make my final judgment once everything is announced. But personally its a huge change in the game to go from 40k total raid wide dps on kotasoth to probably 15-20k total dps. If thats entirely from fixing bugs, ill be very surprised. I highly doubt they can cut rogue/monk dps in half by bug fixing alone, which is why people are calling nerf. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Ronmaru on April 28, 2008, 10:27:30 AM Rather than everyone speculating beyond what was noted officially it would probably be best to wait for Fusoya to deliver his post detailing what will change and why.
I'm personally leaning towards Draxs's opinion on this. When all is said and done monks and rogues will still be quite viable as dps choices and monk will still be tops for pulling. I can't see why this would be so problematic. Its not like sorcerers bring a ton of utilty or rangers so justifying that monks and rogues should be leages ahead of them in damage is just silly. I would be realistically looking for a small bump to monk utility to round out the package over wanting to be excessively ahead of others in dps regardless. But that's my personal preferences. As for bards, they have great and flexible buffing through their songs which means they have to be in play for it to take effect unlike the 1hr buffs of others. I know thier ability haste will be set to no longer stack with psi ability haste. Perhaps they need to be reduced further etc. but considering how they work its a very fine line to walk between bards being overpowered and or suddenly underpowered, aka if their song components are made too weak in a given aspect then it will suddenly become an all or nothing deal instead of adding diversity to the class...which would in a sense destroy a lot of the fun of playing a bard to begin with. Its not a quick easy thing to balance out while still maintianing the functional diversity of the class especially if you take how it functions in groups and solo into account.. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 28, 2008, 10:49:03 AM Its not really that excessive of speculation.
Avair himself stated on the official forums that sorcs would be the new overall top dps. With the gu5 (now to be gu6) changes to them, a few sorcs have posted that their overall dps is about 20% lower then currently. So they will go from 4k average to about 3.2k. So theres my first speculation, that 20% nerf of average sorc dps translates into a 3.2k max dps class. From there i took the fact that rogue/monk would be UNDER sorc and assumed that to go from 5-6k average to less then 3k, it would require our dps to be cut in half. If thats entirely from "bug" fixes and "corrections" I am fine. I just find it hard to believe that half my dps is from bugs in the way damage is being added. It would be a lot more balanced if every dps was in the magic 3k range, dont get me wrong. Im all about fixing bugs and balancing classes so you dont end up with raids with 6 rogues, as long as its done fairly. Rangers - their dps is probably already around the magic 3k mark now with the change to refresh haste stacking. Monk- depending on how aum kor stacks ( i found that aum kor still stacks with drunken monk self refresh haste) with psi or bard buffs, its anywhere from a 20% to 40% reduction in dps. Simply put, 1 minute attacks are currently 20s refresh. With aum+psi, it will be 36s and if aum kor doest stack (making the aum completely useless again) then its about 45s. That alone takes our dps from ~5.5k down to 3.3k to 4.4k Bard are about 3-4k now, and their dps should stay about that with the changes. 3.4k max now Rogue - they should go from about 6k dps to about 4.5k. Their issue is shank/shiv is their "bugged" finisher which is like our flying kick but does real big dmg. So that fix might hit them hard. (again well see) Druids/sorcs will be around 3k at gu6 so thats fine. necros are already there. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Draxs on April 28, 2008, 11:34:33 AM No matter what numbers are gathered or speculated, in the end, if they get it hashed out the way they seem to indicate thay want to it will be fine.
Sorc should be top DPS imo, they have very little survivability. All the nerfs, boosts and changes are all relative and mean nothing if in the end it is corrected game-wide. meaning Mob HPs versus that mobs appropriate setup wether it be a raid/group or solo mob. Even if I loose 5k DPS it will still be relative to others DPS and mob HP. I imagine it will take quite some time and alot of testing/retuning to get it right, but in the end I think it is best for the game. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fusoya on April 28, 2008, 11:42:31 AM The bug fix isn't class balancing, think people may be getting that confused. After the bug fix, class balancing will take place weeks or even months down the road. Rogue and Monk DPS is going to remain too high until that takes place. Don't need to hit the panic button quite yet. =P
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Ronmaru on April 28, 2008, 11:45:15 AM Its not really that excessive of speculation. Avair himself stated on the official forums that sorcs would be the new overall top dps. In regards to burst/sustained, solo/group/raid, overall/overallcaster? Was that mentioned? With the gu5 (now to be gu6) changes to them, a few sorcs have posted that their overall dps is about 20% lower then currently. So they will go from 4k average to about 3.2k. Also until GU5 happens all testing for dps is happening on test, so those values are good for further adjusting things at the moment but don't = the collection of data in game currently. Not saying 3.2k won't in fact be the value that pans out after GU5 is launched but it certainly isn't set in stone atm either and I suspect given more time to work with and try new things under the adjustment it may end up averaging out a bit higher. So theres my first speculation, that 20% nerf of average sorc dps translates into a 3.2k max dps class. From there i took the fact that rogue/monk would be UNDER sorc and assumed that to go from 5-6k average to less then 3k, it would require our dps to be cut in half. Im all about fixing bugs and balancing classes so you dont end up with raids with 6 rogues, as long as its done fairly. If you define fairly as to be only things that are considered "bug fixes" that's not really a position that allows for tweaking of any classes unless the devs call everything they want to adjust bugged...which I suppose they could certainly do but its not (I feel) a very realistic expectation and at the end of the day no matter how it is labled they are making an adjustment to try to bring something more in balance. Rangers - their dps is probably already around the magic 3k mark now with the change to refresh haste stacking. Monk- depending on how aum kor stacks ( i found that aum kor still stacks with drunken monk self refresh haste) with psi or bard buffs, its anywhere from a 20% to 40% reduction in dps. Simply put, 1 minute attacks are currently 20s refresh. With aum+psi, it will be 36s and if aum kor doest stack (making the aum completely useless again) then its about 45s. That alone takes our dps from ~5.5k down to 3.3k to 4.4k Combine that with changes to how multihits will work for stacking +damage effects and it prettymuch nails things in to around that 3K mark Bard are about 3-4k now, and their dps should stay about that with the changes. 3.4k max now Under the new setup there is no way that will stay. Besides that would break the idea that sorc are top DPS. Bards outdamaging rangers/monks/rogues would last about as long as it would take to code in a nerf after people play around with the new setup. Rogue - they should go from about 6k dps to about 4.5k. Their issue is shank/shiv is their "bugged" finisher which is like our flying kick but does real big dmg. So that fix might hit them hard. (again well see) Well if your thoughts on sorceres being the benchmark for max sustained raid dps is accurate then rogues would have to get cut in half as well. Druids/sorcs will be around 3k at gu6 so thats fine. necros are already there. So if I understand right, you feel that it will be sorc at ~3.2k and rogue will be ~3.19? monk~3.1? Ranger and everyone else 3kish? It will be interesting to see Fusoya's explaination of things. None of this current takes into account how melee haste will change either. A lot of stuff around the corner, I doubt strongly it is all going to work out exactly how anyone anticipates and will probably take a while to get it all right. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Draxs on April 28, 2008, 11:51:12 AM The bug fix isn't class balancing, think people may be getting that confused. After the bug fix, class balancing will take place weeks or even months down the road. Rogue and Monk DPS is going to remain too high until that takes place. Don't need to hit the panic button quite yet. =P I don't believe you, the sky IS falling and we ARE doom!! Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 28, 2008, 12:01:29 PM In regards to burst/sustained, solo/group/raid, overall/overallcaster? Was that mentioned? http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=31320 ""There will be a combat balancing pass done during GU6. During this pass we are addressing the DPS discrepancy between caster and melee classes, adjusting NPC HPs, class DPS, etc. We will be using current caster DPS as our top end for balancing, NOT current melee DPS. We are going to move the Sorcerer to the top of the caster DPS then, when GU6 balancing pass is complete, they will be on top of the overall DPS list." To me that says on aveage, they will be the top caster AND top overall dps. If you define fairly as to be only things that are considered "bug fixes" that's not really a position that allows for tweaking of any classes unless the devs call everything they want to adjust bugged...which I suppose they could certainly do but its not (I feel) a very realistic expectation and at the end of the day no matter how it is labled they are making an adjustment to try to bring something more in balance. --- fairly is just like it sounds, all classes get the same treatment either positive or negative, no favorites. Combine that with changes to how multihits will work for stacking +damage effects and it prettymuch nails things in to around that 3K mark Again this has yet to be seen, it all depends on how they change the code. Personally with 4x multi hits for my primary dmg, having them go from 7k a hit to 3k a hit , then moving them from 20s to 45 seconds its a bit more of a nerf that puts me well below 3k dps. Under the new setup there is no way that will stay. Besides that would break the idea that sorc are top DPS. Bards outdamaging rangers/monks/rogues would last about as long as it would take to code in a nerf after people play around with the new setup. Sorry but i cant resist.....thats what another 3 months? Lets be honest changes arent fast in this game and it takes entirely to long to get stuff out. Well if your thoughts on sorceres being the benchmark for max sustained raid dps is accurate then rogues would have to get cut in half as well. Its not my "thoughts" its what avair said for raid dps. So if I understand right, you feel that it will be sorc at ~3.2k and rogue will be ~3.19? monk~3.1? Ranger and everyone else 3kish? Nope, thats what avair/fusoya have stated as far as placement goes, the numbers are just my generalization based on my guilds current parsing It will be interesting to see Fusoya's explaination of things. None of this current takes into account how melee haste will change either. Melee haste isnt even planed until gu6 or later at the earliest, ideally it will be gu6 so melee are balanced WITH haste in mind and we wont need another nerf 4 weeks later [/quote] Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Thorius on April 28, 2008, 01:56:54 PM well time to break out the DK again.
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Ronmaru on April 29, 2008, 12:46:43 PM In regards to burst/sustained, solo/group/raid, overall/overallcaster? Was that mentioned? http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=31320 ""There will be a combat balancing pass done during GU6. During this pass we are addressing the DPS discrepancy between caster and melee classes, adjusting NPC HPs, class DPS, etc. We will be using current caster DPS as our top end for balancing, NOT current melee DPS. We are going to move the Sorcerer to the top of the caster DPS then, when GU6 balancing pass is complete, they will be on top of the overall DPS list." To me that says on aveage, they will be the top caster AND top overall dps. Yep...the question remains what context, solo/group or raid? It sounds like they are refering to sustained raid DPS. Which would be worst case scenario for melee. If they are referring to self buffed solo sustained DPS then melee should still be tops in raid situations. Will be interesting either way. Its a shame they don't have the manpower to give sorc some more versatility and utility instead of just pure one button dps. Under the new setup there is no way that will stay. Besides that would break the idea that sorc are top DPS. Bards outdamaging rangers/monks/rogues would last about as long as it would take to code in a nerf after people play around with the new setup. Sorry but i cant resist.....thats what another 3 months? Lets be honest changes arent fast in this game and it takes entirely to long to get stuff out. In general that's true but they somehow manage to speed nerfs through sometimes.... It will be interesting to see Fusoya's explaination of things. None of this current takes into account how melee haste will change either. Melee haste isnt even planed until gu6 or later at the earliest, ideally it will be gu6 so melee are balanced WITH haste in mind and we wont need another nerf 4 weeks later True, I've said for a while that its simply moronic to 'review' any classes until they adjust that first since it will skew everything. Meaning they'll just have to go back and yet readjust thing again. Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 29, 2008, 01:00:06 PM zomg on the purple
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Ronmaru on April 29, 2008, 01:59:35 PM Lol yeah it must have pissed someone off, I just got kicked again. ;)
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Fujitsu on April 29, 2008, 02:19:45 PM Over a year here and i never saw that kick/bow thing... lol
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Ronmaru on April 29, 2008, 02:26:03 PM I figure its most heavily used by people who don't like what someone says but really can't argue with it either, or don't want to take the time to argue it...in reality sometimes that's for the best if it helps them vent so I just ignor it and focus on what people actually say. ;)
Title: Re: Trouble Incoming Post by: Ronmaru on April 29, 2008, 06:30:13 PM Perfect example I've gotten 3 kicks today. For what exactly?
No clue but someone didn't like something I said and took the easy way. It happens.
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