Vanguard Monks

Just for giggles.  This is 2 monk/rogue in the same group.  Bard/psi/shm buffed.  Sorc has a bard and all buffs.


Class --- DPs --- TOTAL DMG ---- dmg ratio (if bard is base dmg)
Rog1 - 6.4k ---1,830,000 ----2.28
rog2- 6.2k ---1,730,000 ---2.16
monk (drunk) - 5.4k 1,550,000 ---1.93
monk (drag) - 5.4k --- 1,540,000-- 1.93
Sorc 3.6k ---1,017,000 --- 1.27
bard 1 - 2.8k --- 800,000  ---- 1.0
bard 2 - 2.6k --- 747,000 --- 0.93
War-- 2.6k --- 729, 372 ---0.911
dk- 2.3k ---660,000  ---0.825


Assuming bards "base" dmg (gonna use total dmg not dps), because most people seem to think bards are right where they should be. 
The average raid geared rogue is over 2.2 a bards dmg. 
The average monk (dragon or drunken) is 1.9 times a bards dmg.
The average sorc is 1.27 times

My conclusion ---monks and rogues are right where they should be, for the ammount of utility bards do, they should be happy rogues only do 2x their dps.  I think its fair for the ammount of utility a bard gets.  As far as monks, raid wise dragon/drunken are pretty even on dps, harmonious is significantly lower.  We are again spot on where we should be in relation to bards and rogues. 

The only issue i see is that sorcs are only 1.3 times the total dmg.  Of bards.  This is with rune song and a personal healer for the sorc.  Litterally cant chain chaos volley any more then that folks.

Thanks Fuj! Interesting study here!

However, taking off SOR from the study :

All three classes should be equal on their stats,  DEX/STR wise!  And it's certainly impossible to achieve that! Let alone their weapons!

I would consider it an overall average results.

Putting SOR back, I think they do need a lookup! Keeping that in mind their main power is to deliver fast DMG in a short period of time, not to top their overall DMG, meaning let them test the first 15seconds which I think SOR will be on top.

Your parse for monks seems extremely low. Are you Dual Wielding or using 2H?   Dual wielding (even crafted weapons) would yeild higher results thatn what you're showing and puts monks at about 6.2-6.9k DPS.  Do any / all of those classes have a cleric in the group with them?  And you said Sorc has a bard and all buffs...do the monks / rogues not have a bard and all buffs?  With bard Runes being broken, you shouldn't even need a healer for your sorc...but again, I'm wondering if he had a cleric in his group as well. 

My conclusion is that all melee DPS is too strong and caster dps, in general and excluding Psi parses (parses only, no idea how much DPS they really do) is right on target.  Sorcs / Nec / Druid all seem to be doing about 2.5-3.5k fully buffed DPS with a bard.   

Sung:
yes melee have a cleric and bear shaman.  The monks, i am using 1 crafted, and legions,...the other is using 2x legendary dual wielders....  This was using both the dmg buffs x2 (at the start and again at the end) so i really cant get more then that.  a monk would have to be buged with no agro and infinite endurance to do more.   Melee had all buffs, bear shm, cleric, bard, blood mage, etc (i took the +86 dmg and other monk took the jolt)

Sorc has all buffs, a bard, and i think it was a blood mage healer. (with bird shm buffs)

I dont know, i dont think a sorc should be doing the same dps as a bard, which is about 3k

And so you know thats very representative of 90% of our fights.  Occasionally ill pass a rogue and break 6k but its rare.

I do over 7k on 99 and I'm not bugged.

I only have one legendary weapon and one heroic /cry

Well acording to sung and dev buddies you are doing 5k to much dps

You can't possibly mean that we should be dealing less DPS than a Bard, could you?

More like 2.5-3k Kivik.   Thanks for playing though
And no Khana, Good monks should never do less DPS than good bards.  Bad monks...well maybe

Dunno ask sung ..he knows where we all should be on the pole but from reading his posts that the way i take it

PS...that's my personal opinion, not some fact a dev told me.  IMO, no class should be doing more than 4.5k on raids.  It grossly inbalances content.  So much in fact, that some guilds that used to farm Kotasoth can no longer kill him. 

I don't mind the nerf one bit. As long as it's done right it will bring the classes all inline and help them manage raid content (as well as group) much more effectively. It's hard to design solid content when you have some DPS classes doing double what others are doing. If you design it to account for the really high DPS then it will dictate all guilds use the most efficent group on those burn fights, which leaves alot of players out in the cold.

Once the DPS in brought down and standardized it will be much easier to push content that won't be trivialized by a max DPS raid force.

EDIT*

Just wanted to point out that I personlly will feel this more than most players in the game to date, yet I support it and I wish others would see it for what it is instead of just yelling Nerf anf gatherin their pitchforks.

Yeah sung i over did it on purpose.Im just sick and tired of hearing constant dps this and dps that.Fix the stupid bugs first like for example the magicborn abomination zonning..talk to npc ..npc casts spell and nobody gets ported.
Hail him again and he says you must wait,And guess what ,even after the area resets you still have to wait an additional 20 mins because it bugged (nothing tells all the spawns from magicborn to despawn when the area resets)
Frustrated i am
It gets old fast
I am growing tired of it

Nice try sung,Only reason we have not killed kota is due to loss of players(key players)
After GU4 we lost 2 full raid geard bards 1 raid geared monk and several raid geared casters,you of all people should know what you say is bs cause you finally got kota since last week due to roster reasons too.
Anyway since then we have found 1 new bard(needs gear) and 1 monk (partially geared now) so dont worry sung we will be back killing kota in no time..Thanks for making sure you keep up on what we do.

Not quite true Kivik.  Before GU4 we used 0-1 rogues and 1-2 monks on Kota.  In order to get him down this time, we had to recruit another rogue and use 3 monks total = 1-2 rogues and 2-3 monks.  As a result, we had to sit out 3 classes who's DPS wasn't on par with the monk / rog in order to kill him.  That wasn't a stab at you man, sorry if you took it as such.   Trinity, BoW and Pain all had issues with their rosters, and in order to beat the new Kota we had to ramp up our DPS even more than before. 

No problem sung,I appologize also if i seem out of my norm.Its really a combination of frustration with my pain medicine(cough medicine with codine).
Anyway im just tired of hearing all the BS  and then seeing retatrded mounts going when the time spent on it needed to be on serious bugs
As for dps its always been my belief that as aviar posted it really needs to be interchangable to some point(keeping in mind utility brought with the dps)
The best news i have seen so far though is that we have a active CL and when the stuff hits  the test server there will be a monk that will be used to take  results from on tests.

I just wish he could post his explanation heh, still waiting on dev approval.  I got to proof read it, and it explains the issues in detail.  once you all see it a lot of people will be doing a 180 and saying "Holy SNARF, I had no idea". 

In all fairness gu4 changed the kota encounter on a number of levels.

1) Bard dps: Led to an overal raid wide drop in dps of about 20-30% (depending on raid
2) Kota gain 25% more hp
3) his fear ae got an endurance tap and acc debuff added to it
4) blood mage - i know certain guilds are still using a blood mage exploit and its being taken care of too, cheating to beat content is lame, especially when you post videos of your raids with the exploit in it.
5) about every guild lost 10-33% of their members due to the sheer frustrating nature of gu4 (2 weeks of almost unplayable lag?, buged quests and guilds being douche bags and blocking griffon mobs)

Before gu4 we had 2 monks, 2 rogues... after gu4 we had 2monks and 2 rogues.  Our melee dps group didnt change much.  The only real change was casters needed way more spell counter now, because 1 missed heal just isnt acceptable anymore.

The people hit hardest by this "nerf" will be monks and rogues.  Not just because we are going from 6-7k dps (without bugs, /eyes monks doing 8-12k dps) to 3kdps. but because we will be interchangable.  In a world were every things equal, you find out very fast that not every things equal.  I understand that rangers deserve an equal spot in raids, as do sorcs, druids, and necros etc.  I just disagree that we should all offer the same dps.  Because once we all offer the same dps , who do you take a monk with no debufs, or a ranger with debuffs and the ability to range fight if needed.  Why take a rogue who needs the back of the mob when you can get a sorc who can range it and not get hit by 80%+ of the ae or a druid who can do the same. 

I do agree that standardizing raids would be nice, then you dont get mobs that require 4-6 ultra high dps just to have a shot of beating.  (kota and fengrot come to mind).  I prefer a challenge over a grind any day. 

Who are you referring to using BM exploit to beat Kota? I only know of three guilds post gu4 to beat him 2 of those 3 are yours and mine. I assume you are not referring to your own guild so I was just wanting to make sure you were not referring to my guild.

Pre gu4 i would suspect most guilds used the bm trick, even the developers knew about it and worked with us to try and figure out how to fix it.   Im not referring to any guilds using it now on KOTA just in general. 

Ive seen enough you tube videos to know when a blood mage runs into a raid mob and dies at the start of a fight.   

I can honestly say I swear to GOD I don't even know what you are talking about.

I have often said that our guild is the worst test guild ever when it comes to finding exploits, I guess we just don't think along those lines and our memebers know better than to even propose an exploit if they thought of one.

Our only BM is Luper and she is imvaluable to us. I can't even imagine what possible exploit you can use that requires sedning in one of your best healers to die to the mob can possibly be.

So just for the record we didn't and have never used any exploit to beat any mobs, much less important mobs like Kota or Feng. In fact, not using what was a known exploit (necros healing from g4) was one of the many bugs that cost us to lose the WWF on Kota.

You see, we didn't exploit the bug even though we knew about it, we actually used our necro in the raid which in the end was the thing that kept crashing the zone on us.

Our necro was using a skin graft, the zarkin mummy looking one. It procs alifetap ability whenever the pet takes damage or is hit it heals itself for a small amount.

Well, 50% Kota put his buff up that is reactive to striking it with melee. You strike kota and you get the debuff. Well the pet would hit kota causing the debuff to proc on the pet cauing the lifetap which causes the heal... see where I'm going.. it was a loop error which within a matter of seconds was crashing the chunk.

So by not being like some guilds (no names) and playing fairly and not looking for or using known exploit we lost the WWF on Kota, but hey, 45 minutes later we killed it the right way.

So in the future please don't be so presumptious as to assume Brotherhood of the Spider uses any exploits. Wether we come in first, second or dead last you can bet your ass we did it the right way.

Maybe but we didnt use necro heals to beat kota either ;-p  What cost you the wwf was probably your guilds inability to debug a situation and figure out what was crashing yall sooner.  We got kota dead with 0 exploits.  Kota was so much easier then.  Even now we still have kota randomly reset at 20% not heal mind you just decide he wants full hp but hell let us keep the debuffs on.  Silius says "so its working like intended?"

What frustrates me more then anything, is how 90% of the time he says its intended, then 2 weeks later looks at the actual code and says opps, thats not right.

Careful though draxs ill call you on your bluff, you may not know about the bm exploit but i know your guild knows of it, you even have videos posted back in the day of your guild using it. 

I'm one of three that runs our raids. I can assure that whatever you saw in some video your making assumptions that are incorrect. We didn't use any exploits nor has Luper ever ran up and died to Kota before we fought him.

I so often hold back and just bite my tongue, partialy because it's our guild policy and also because I believe in being above defending myself and or my guild, but this kind of stuff pisses me off. We bust our asses doing things the right way and all it takes is someone randomly thinking they know something to publicly bring all of our hardwork into question.

As far as our inability to debug a situation.. wow.. so, let me explain to you that Kota had a total of 3 bugs making him unkillable.

1. His AE breath was not checking properly. It took us 1 day to figure out what it was doing and 1 week for the devs to correct it. What it was doing was chekcing it's POSSIBLE total damage versus your CURRENT hp, if your CURRENT hp was lower you would intantly be killed. What it was supposed to do was simply do it's damage to you minus your absortion plus the neck buff absorption. So basicaly what we had was anyone under 8k HP at the time of any of his breath attakcs were instantly dying. (yeah, our fault totaly)

2. His AE's were all too large, making it damn near impossible to keep any casters alive and his doom was bugged. I will not go into specifics on the doom cause I can't figure out how to explain how it was bugged and not give away the strat on how to solve it. And as you know I do not give out anything even remotely related to strats. (another week goes by while we wait for correction) .. (Once again, yeah our fault totaly)

3. week 3, we start crashing immidiately after 50%. Avarem says it's a bug to the ability he puts up and comes to watch us crash him about 3 times at 50% on live. A few days later he asks us to come to test so we can try and help him figure out what is going on with the mob (he has more tools available to him on test to analyze whats happening). After a full night of testing he tells it's a loop error but he thinks he knows whats causing it is but is going to need to patch it before we can test it again. Says he will patch it that night should be ready next day.

Next day comes around we start up the raid get Kota to 50% boom zone crashes still. Avarem at this point says the fix must not have went in that he would repatch it and reset the server right away, roughly 4 hours later the server chunk gets reset and we get Kota to 13% I think it was and wipe to an untimely mistake. We regroup and kill him next pull. (yeah so once again our fault completely that we didn't drive to SOE and figure out the bugs and edit the code ourself)

So, you walk into a mob after almost 3 weeks of us testing and correcting it for you on live servers and kill it 45 minutes before we do, and what takes place then? Not a thanks for putting the time in and suffering through a completely hosed up encounter in for 3 weeks to make it killable.. nah, your guild posts on your front pages talking SNARF about how your number one and we suck for not being able to kill it in 3 weeks when you killed it in 1 day.

P.S. Can you please post the link of the video where we so blantly exploited Kota, If your going to make public accusations atleast provide the proof, like for instance if I was to claim a certian pesron along with a his guild memebers and an officer of his guild exploit themselves past the barrier at Heg while 4 other guilds were sitting at phage waiting to fight for claim I would supply the screenshots and the logg I have of it instead of just saying it, otherwise it's just slander right, and as an upstanding member of the community I know your above slander.. right?

Drop the kota part bro.  It wasnt kota.  Never said it was kota...said it wasnt kota like 3 times previously.

Sorry but yes it is an assumption that when you post a video of luper running up to a raid mob and dieing on pull and not being rezed for an entire boss fight its slightly suspicious.  Theres no way im going to go find all the movies, it was in 2 of them though, and it was instantly recognized by pretty much everyone that knew about the bm exploit so /shrug.

1)You yourself said it was the necros pet skin graft.  And that it took you a while to figure it out. No need to be defensive i was just agreeing with you, that if you had figured it out sooner you would have had it.

2) his ae's are still pretty big, 3 of them are 50m range, so ill just assume your refering to his regular breath and tail swipe.

3) the servers never went down that night to patch apw, if anything happened it was a patch to a specific shard you were in.  Fact of the matter is all it would have taken was to swamp one necro out and you could have had it a week earlier.  I dont know your raid setup or whats available to you, but in 1 week of testing to never have each class sit out 1 by one to find out whats causing it? 


4) i dont even want to hear that trash about "thanks" ... you realize you guys got a world wide "grats"  for second place on griffon raid mob?  We didnt get squat for kotasoth, we were promised and interview for some site and a story about us on sonys site... None of that happened, the gms/devs/community reps magically never saw our pm/emails.   Thing is we didnt raid test, we didnt get elite strats months in advance to plow through entrance and early wings.  We did it at our own pace and wound up getting it first, then aside from a few posts on a forum thread, got no recognition from the developers like you guys get for a second place finish....

You know why they prolly recognized us for the Abom?

Becsuse we tested that on live for about 3 weeks too for them, look at the time between us getting the WWF on the griffon and Abom being killed.. really think it took us over a month to kill that guy?

They ninja patched in a fix and never told us. Then we heard it was killed while it was still unkillable as far as we knew. So we killed it first thing the next day on our fist pull. because we had already developed the strat but the fight was unkillable.

Convientent you can't find the vidoes of us so blantly exploiting.. man, you would think someone would have saved those things as seeing how it just showed how much the number one guild in the world was out exploiting content.

As for Kota.. we tried several different raid make-ups but it did include our necro everytime. And do you really think that had Kota not been bugged and been killable from day 1 we would not have downed him nearly 3 weeks before you even knew what the thing looked like.. keep patting yourself on the back and talking about how you earned it while trying to dismiss the fact that you know damn well we would have killed him with 1 to 2 days from the first attempt, which let me remind you.. again, would have been weeks before you guys even got to him. Your chunk wasn't brought down and it wasn't affecting you because you didn't have a necro using that graft in your raid. I'm pretty sure Avarem didn't even know you guys were on Kota so he only reset our chunk.

So keep talking crap posting in public forums about how we are exploiters along with "most guilds" without any proof and keep telling yourself your number 1, It's safe to say pretty much everyone who cares knows the truth anyway.

Lol your so full of yourself over a game.

So because you spent all the time testing it you deserve a big pat on the back for second place? 

Convenient that theres all these ninja patches that always prevent yall from geting wwf?

I dont save the videos cause i dont care, i never saw bots as competition, nor did i see them as the number 1 guild.  I play the game for fun, and raiding as often as yall did at the time didnt fit my schedule or definition of fun.  If you want to ask me what makes a guild number 1, its something vanguard cant deliver because all we can do is race in instances for a mobs which is hardly a competition. IF apw wasn't instanced and it truely was pain vs bots in one shard going for the server first, then it might have ment something. 

Fact is theres 4-5 guilds who can kill kota, and i dont consider any of them number 1.  Theres just guilds that are right for some people and not for others.  If you consider being first to kill a bunch of mobs in an instance after months of beta testing, then sure bots is number 1.

I have no doubt that you guys could have gotten kota 3 weeks earlier had it not been for other bugs. never denied it or played it down.

Oh, really, mind posting that on your guilds forum for me. So you are admiting to only getting him first because he was bugged for weeks and unkillable?

Never played it down? Just minutes ago you said it was our guilds fault for our "inability to debugg the situation and figure out what was causing us to crash sooner".

I would just stand down and admit tha you shouln't have randomly accused other guilds, all but your own of course, of using exploits to kill mobs. Thats all my point was anyway, Kota kill is it's own issue and like I said, those that care know anyway.

**I edited some stuff out**

Meh you obviously care about being number one in a game way to much...

First off, ive never been about pain vs bots... bots is the one that insists they are number 1, we just like to rile you up.

On a side note, I HAVE NEVER been about pain vs bots, i had lots of friends in bots until we killed kota then they all treated me like dirt because of my guild tag.  that means squat when it comes to guilds, the way my guildies act doesnt reflect the way i think or act. 
..........................

YOU stated that it was because it took a while for you guys to figure out that it was the necro, i just restated what you said...  /yawn

Im not denying that there were other bugs that keep you from beeting kota for weeks and that had it not been for them you guys would have gotten it first.  You can ss that and post it where ever.  Ill stand by my word.

And i wont stand down, you can post ss/logs all you want. Everyone here knows im a hot head, but atleast im honest.  And id be dead surprised if luper didnt know what the blood mage exploit was pre gu4. 

At the end of the day VG is a game to me, and you obviously take it way more seriously then me.  This game will be gone in 4 years and no one in the outside world will give a damn what you did in a game years ago.  EG who got the wwf on emporer ssraeasazches (lol sp).  If its that important that you be known as number 1, take the title, i dont care, ill add it to my sig. 

Like I said before, you were the one who accused us of exploiting. Make less blanket acusations (which your still doing) in the future. Wether luper knows or not makes no difference, she does not run our raids and is not randomly dying to use some wierd ass exploit. I think I would notice her randomly running up and dying to raid mobs before we fought them.

Like i first stated, our memebers know better than to even suggest we use any exploits. It's not who we are or what we are about, it would only diminish what we acomplish anyway.

You eep trying to derail it about me carring about who is number 1, You can bet your ass I care, but that is not what got me started.. read back and see my first post, all I asked was who you were reffering to as exploiting. I knew only a handfull of us had beaten Kota and I'm pretty sure even less have made a video of it.

Thats the part that ticked me off. Anyone can just randomly come onto a board and post whatever the hell they want with no proof whatsoever. What you did wether intentional or not was publicly dis-credit what over 30 members of our guild put time into accomplishing. As well as other guilds according to your post. That shows an unacceptable amount of class on your part IMO. That was and is my point, I am still either waiting for this proof you have or for you to admit you were just assuming other people used whatever exploits your guild is aware of.

As far as the SS's I removed that. I am above that and regret even mentioning it. I did remove it rather quickly so I assume only you saw it anyway.

This conversation as it stands makes no one, nor their guild,  look good and serves no purpose.  Most of the people come here to learn about monks.  You are both better than this, clean it up.  ;)

Not going to argue with that. Should have been handled in PM's.

My apologies.