Vanguard Monks

The offical forums are now rife with people calling for teh nerf of monks and rogues dps. Primarily by DPS caster types. Even class leads are jumping on the bandwagon. Someone even quoted a Dev that stated melle DPS was out of control. What the heck is going on? Who is standing up for us? This is a pretty one dimensional class. DAMAGE.
Pulling is done by alot of classes now and done better by some. FD is shared with a 2 other classes. Stance pushing? 2 other classes that do it better. I mean 48 endurance a push isnt very efficient. So what else can we do?
We need someone to put a halt to all these nerf cries or we are gonna get hosed. What do you guys think?

Well until we get a class lead to represent us theres very little we can do but post on the offical forums that we want representation before they nerf us.

From what i can tell its people who dont parse accurately claiming we have bugged skills.   

I have these arguments with my guild casters all day long.
I seem to have convinced most of them that it would be unfair and unbalanced for sorcs to be more raid dps than monk/rogue.
Main reasons are sorcs are better for soloing, have in-combat ranged mezzes, group buffs (albeit meager), passive detaunt from being ranged, avoid 90% of AEs from being ranged.

If sorcs all of a sudden has more Raid dps than rogue....why would you possibly roll a rogue.....when sorcs is better for solo + group + raid etc. Fact is sorcs should be less dps than rogue otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me.
Could still make a monk for pulling/CR purposes....but i'd bet 99.9% of monks value their dps over any of that.

As for bugged skills, noone ever said we were uber until raiding started, which basically means we are pretty unremarkable solo/group. Nerfing our attacks makes us a total waste of space in those circumstances, when we bring absolutely nothing to the table except dps.

And everyone please make some noise on fujitsu's thread: http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=30262
we need a class lead pronto

This is exactly why I don't like parsers all that much. People will figure the people being parsed are representational, while they might very well just suck / excel at their class, have better gear, etc.

Even IF we do more damage than them, the balance has been tipped in their favour for so long it's not even funny anymore. If the disparity is caused by bugs, that should be fixed. In my mind, it's likely caused by two things: over the top buffing and poor aggro management for casters. Considering that our average hits are somewhere between 1.5 and 3k and theirs are upwards of 4k and given that the damage output of their crits is higher than ours, those can be the only reasons.

In a nutshell yeah.

That about sums up my opinion too.  No one even noticed our dps till raids, and more specifically until monks started getting celerity 5 piece armor procs.  This leads me to beleive a few things.  One that the ultimate solution would be to make it so celerity and errant strike 1) dont stack and 2) can not be affected by refresh haste. 

Last night we had no bear shm/psi/bard for refresh haste... Know what i noticed.  The overal dps of the raid is lower, but the positions are the same...only now sorcs are a few steps higher on the totem poll.

IE its still rog > monk >bard >rng >war/dk  for melee, but instead of sorcs being near the bottom they are more near the mdidle

Where do ranged rangers stands compared to monks in melee ?
Personnaly i'm crap geared, especially for DPS, (i tried to get my hands on survival gear for pulling and aoes first : dead = 0 DPS) but for exemple on Nerksawl i was number 1 dps as a drunken monk, but we had no rogues.
Rangers seemed to shine in DPS while i was leveling, but since i raid, they seem to suck hard.

Rangers simply lack the kind of deaggro tools to do things right.  They either get the flat 20% reduced aggro doing ranged attacks or they use their relatively weak melee deaggro ability doing melee attacks.  Either way our rangers have to limit their damage or they pull aggro and die.  Same with our sorcerers.

I find its not agro that limits their dps... its their ability to grow with raid buffs.  They just dont benifit as much as rogues/monks from raid buffs,... they cap their dps much easier in groups.  It might just be the nature of their attacks Im not sure as i dont play a ranger, but i know in solo dps they can rock a monks, in groups they are usualy equal if not better... and in raids they are significantly lower.

I have never really been "rocked" by a ranger or sorc in a solo or group situation. You have to remeber that in a group situation having to worry about aggro is alot less of a concern than it is in a raid situation. The length of fights is significantly less and there is also a smaller chance of dying due to catching aggro. Typically a ranger or even a sorc that pulls aggro on a group mob will live long enough for the tank to get the aggro back or for the mob to die... In a raid situation the ranger or sorc will probably die or even worse get everyone else killed due to some type of frontal ability the mob may have... This alone drastically reduces any classes dps. Monks on the other hand dont have to worry about this as much due to having a 100% aggro whipe.

Something else id like to point out is monks, especially drunken and dragon styles, have very little to no utlity... If you look at any class in the game they all get atleast 1 or 2 significant debuffs or buffs, they get a stance or enchantment push, they get a heal or a counter and the list goes on. Dragon and Drunken monks pretty much only get a endurance hungry stance push and a 2400 hate feed ( which I still dont think works )... Drunken also get a 14% ae hate increase to our defensive target ( which I also dont think works )... Other than that we dont get any buffs or heals for anyone but our selves... no counter or debuffs. Harmonious monks are the exception, they get alot of debuffs but as a result their dps is alot lower than that of a dragon or drunkens dps.

The problem I see is alot of poeple including class leads rather think of ways to nerf other classes than think of ways to fix or improve the class they were appointed to.  Class leads need to focus on their class and stop trying to mess with other peoples classes. They were appointed class lead of ONE class because they play and are very knowledgeable of that ONE class... When they start chiming in about classes they dont play or play very little that is when real problem arise such as this whole "Nerf the monks" epidemic.

I was tempted to post a fight were the top 2 dps were sorc and bard (we had 1 bard, in the tank group, .... no bear shm and no psi buffs)

.... Then be like zomg nerf bard/sorc they crack 3.5k dps when we have no refresh haste/endurance regen buffs!

I agree its frustrating that other class leads are trying to "fix us" and we have absolutely no say.

Possible early congrats Fujitsu and good luck..hearing a Little something.

Who told you...that i got to play a sorc at tonights raids to show them how to crack 5k dps!  Seroiuosly id like to hear something ;-p

(although i am tempted to play an afk ranger and see their dps)

I gots people :smiley6600:
seriously though if it is indeed true you better not let us down :knuppel2:

A CL can only do so much.  If the devs have rocks in their heads (as they many times seem to) the CL can only relay to you what they said and the responces they were given.  Additionally any changes suggested that require coding etc. can take a loooong time to get processed along the que of many many other things.

I wanted to scream at the devs when they completely jacked up shaman patron balance by removing the regen capabilities from just one patron (wolf) completely.  And then watched them utterly fail to try to rebalance around it.  The wolf shaman ended up being royally gimped in solo and group content compared to the other patrons and then suddenly became godlike in terms of dps for a healer on raids where they actually had endurance regen from other classes buffs.

If they hadn't made the bonehead move of stipping the wolf shammy regen in the first place it never would have become such an increadibly unbalanced situation.  But no one could convince the devs of their own stupidity. :uglystupid2:  Even though the problem was dead obvious to most people playing a rakurr shammy....go figure.

Sometimes the devs really are just clueless and stubborn.  /shrug

Lol ,well the "people" i got seem to be wrong,although all they really told me was they were approached by certian person and asked about  Fujitsu..any rate Good Luck Fusoya with the Job.

Gratz to him, never personally heard of him or seen him post, so lets get him involved with the community over here and make sure hes active  :knuppel2:

sorry fujitsu.

Lol dont be sorry i was never particularly looking to be the class lead.  I just was more pushing for us to get one we are fairly represented.  Dont worry ill still bust my butt on test every time theres new changes.

Fusoya is a good monk. he may not know it but i have grouped with him when he was leveling.(i was on a alt  after being bored at lvl 50 as a monk for sometime)
Good luck on the new position and hope you work to show our concerns to the devs.

Aye he is a Good monk.

His raiding experience will help us allot for us monks on the front line in APW!

Lol i guess getting the world first on Kotasoth doesnt count as raid experience  :'( 

Honestly our raiding situation isnt to bad atm, its more of the group/solo that needs work.  That and general bugs/fixes.

Fujitsu isn't our new class lead ?? Never heard of, or seen this guy post on forums, not that i don't welcome a CL.
I have high hopes! Don't much like Talisker's phrasing on monk's current "damage issues", i can feel the nerf bat already.

Well anyway, you'll always be my class leader fujitsu  ;)

FD needs to be more effective! (lvl44+)   failing to success in APW is like instant death to us!

so has this new CL written anything of note i can read? Or posted an opinion anywhere? Id like to read where he stands on the issues facing the monk class. Can anyone drag him to the MONK FORUM and have him/her post

I dont see why thier is a call to nerf monks.

The Sorc needs a revamp to put it at the damage level it probably should be in raiding.  I dont see how this revamp should actually damage other classes that are where they should be in damage terms. 

Really dont like people calling for class nerf's, I hae a monk and a sorcerer, dont see why they both cant compete for top parse.

.. agreed. Where can we interact with our new lead?

For now try...
http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=49

Hes posting there atm.  I think we might all end up doing this also simply because the stability of this site is in question an I still cant contact a moderator.

You can find me on either vanguardmonks, vgplayers, or monkly business. I check all of the forums daily and can respond to personal messages if you like. If you check way back when, I was originally one of the frequent posters on this site. I have always followed up on the posts at least once a week, I just haven't posted in a while. I remade my account because I lost the old info, as it is not needed to read the forums, only to post.