Vanguard Monks

So its been over two months, and i think its time we try to do something (in a polite and civilized maner) to get the changes we need for monks.   Ive started a thread at the main forums.

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=30262

Feel free to chime in and let the developers know we desperately want the changes promised since back in December. 

Posted on it, nothing dramatic or over the top, hope someone important reads it  :(

yea lets get this show on the road :knuppel2: :police: :smiley6600: ;)

Thanks! I sure will add on my part the FUN STUFF!!

Come one!!  1 FD animation stinks!  And we need SOUND!!!  MOANING Bleeding SOUND O'yaaah!!  *too EQish*

mind me, too drunk!

If you're like rocklee at all it will only take about a tablespoon of alcoholic beverage to do that.  Of course in the process you will also accidentally kick the crap out of everything in a 5 mile radius...  ;)

If I can every actually post on the official forums I'll chime in as well.  Its never worked quite right for me...which is odd considering that it still works for EQ1/2 etc.

Hehe :P  I am avoiding drinking sake :P  else a massive strike would accure :P

You can post here, and ill post it there with ur quote :)   It should work :>

Bumped it up. Oh I accidentally may have voted for you Fujitsu.   :angel:

Now would be an excellent time to get involved guys.

There are some big plans to nerf monk/rogue dps "to fix it".

from what i gather they feel we have bugged abilities that are doing more dmg then they should...

• thousand fist line
  secrets
  fist of celerity/errant strike

while im all for fixing bugs, none of these skills seem broken to me.  If anything errant strike/celerity should not stack.  Thats it.  Either way, they are trying to find out why rogue/monk dps is so much higher then everyone else in a raid.  They are blaming bugged skills (they think thousand fist is doing way to much dmg)

Get motivated and involved, cause id hate to see our class nerfed if we had no class lead to represent us.

WTF! If anything they could stop refresh haste stacking.
In raids the abilites are doing nice dmg, but solo they're really unremarkable.
God forbid that a class that adds nothing to the group in terms of buffs and group dps increasers, and one of the worst soloers in the game....should have a decent dps rate.

I can see it now, group 4's bursting full of monk and just swapped in for the odd split, why have a monk when you can have a ranger that does equal dps and brings much more to the group, also can solo 10 x 4dots at once if needed.

Nailed it simon.

They want a utopia where everyone is equal, so as soon as a get a rez, complete heal ( i can cast on others) and a mez

Ah interesting, i presume monks are getting a massive ranged dps increase then (600% at least)

I really don't trust the devs intentions as to what is "equal",
let's take ranger for instance; melee hits very similar to monk/rogue, ranged hits essentially the same in most cases (ability to go either melee or ranged depending on the situation and not lose any significant amount of dps).
Can tank in a tricky situation, can heal in a tricky situation.
GOOD group buffs.
Stupidly overpowered for soloing/mass kiting

Monk; nice melee dps, joke ranged dps (might as well not have a monk if everyone except tank needs to be ranged)
Can tank in a tricky situation, can't heal except small self one on massive cooldown
NO group buffs of any kind (oh let's not forget jin surge - lmao)
In the bottom 3 classes at soloing (warrior/rogue/monk?)

Bottom line - nerfing our dps makes us useless to raid, except stance removal...oh! ranger can do that a lot better too :(
Time to reroll to a more "equal" class?  :tickedoff:

The problem I see is people seem to think we are "bugged" mainly because they lack the understanding of how our abilities work and rather than attempting to understand they automatically pull out the nerf stick. The biggest "bug" that i hear talked about is with our errant strikes and fists of celerity abilities and the blue dmg text that is displayed as a result of using them. This blue text is NOT extra damage ontop of the actualy hit which is what people seem to think. The blue text is merly showing you how much extra damage you did from using the ability.

For example I use ashen hand... I hit the mob for 20k and fist of celerity shows doing 10k... This does not mean i just did 30k... it means i did 10k with ashen hand and fists of celerity doubled that adding another 10k resulting in my 20k hit... NOT A BUG. Quickening Jolt ( Bloodmage buff ) provides the same results as errant strikes and fists of celerity it just does not display the blue text informing you how much extra dmg you did.

Also as much as i disagree with us being nerfed because of false bug claims we would not be usless... We are still the best pullers for raids. We are also very good when it comes to soloing although that is not something taken into account when balancing a class... Everyone can solo the solo content well... The ability to solo group content is a bonus, dont complain because you cant and somone else can.

We are also amongst the top DPS.
I'm sure a very well equiped monkey will do as much dps as a rogue once they get the 5 pieces of their APW armor set :)
Else we're behind rogues.

I would be all for celerity and errant not stacking, it would reduce drunken's dps enough I think that I don't think anything else needs to be done.  I think refresh haste should still stack, it does not just benefit us.

I don't think they should reduce our damage at all, they should just boost some caster dps and add some hp onto raid mobs to counteract the change in overall dps.

I played pulling classes before in other MMO's, and I do not think it is acceptable to be pigeon holed to that one job, I also disagree that our solo ability would be considered a class defining aspect.  At 50, and before then with good gear it can be a definite advantage (as well as FD's usefulness) but I think other classes can do it as good or better.  Melee need top damage right now to be viable to raids.  If you are going to take that away take away stance removal from disciples and rangers, and make our hate transfer more relevant because without those I would much rather have a caster and not have to deal with ae effects.

So all I can say is wow.  Inbetween talking to other class leads and reading the boards.  Its 99% obvious that they have no clue.

1) Parsers - Self parse vs 3rd person parse.  For melee they are pretty dang good for both, i recommend using YAVLP (on pains website).  People seem to think that we have a ton of dps that isnt being parsed (ala they dont understand errant strike, fist of celerity, and weakness.  Hist MADE the parser and Farrah and I made sure those skills all parsed correctly.  So theres no hidden 12k dps.

2) There is a bug that some guilds are exploiting to give melee 100% endurance (not just high end regen, you litterally will never use any of it)

3) Monk/rogue do very little solo or in groups.  The reason we are so good in raid is our class depends on good tanks.  That in combination with the fact that buff stacking is a bit out of hand (refresh haste mainly) makes it slightly trivial for melee.  I dont think endurance regen is an issue simply because most casters never go OOEnergy, but i go OOendurance quite often even with turgan buffs (especially when pushing stance)

4)The reasons casters parse SO LOW is simple, they horrible agro control.  Spike dps agros more then total dmg.  Its proven and parsed by a few DKs.  They can be WAY low on the agro list in offensive stance, and a big 40k crit will net them agro.  Ive seen it 1000 times with sorcs "opps i peeled i had a legendary crit"  In a fight where agro is 100% locked (mob wont leave a target) ive seen sorcs parse up to 4-5k dps, its possible.  Necros with dots + pets, again 4k dps easy.  Druids...they are kinda low even with their dots, PP, and minions i see them capping out at about 3k.  They can compete with all the melee minus rog/monk easy...which imho is probably how it should be.

5) the reason theres a difference between str and int is again simple.  At 50 with 0 str my attks would do about 300-500 (ashen hand might do 600).  Thats their base dmg.  A caster with 100% spell dmg rating has a base attack of 5k+ on some skills.  With spell dmg focus, dmg rating, and crit rating  they may appear to get a smaller return...but compare it to the gain if it was like str....they would get +500 dmg to each nuke.  So  a 5k nuke +500 dmg ...or a 5k nuke + 200% modifier ....yeah tough call huh?



Bottom line is if they are making sweeping changes to monk and rogue dps, i will be severely disappointed if we get no say.  I dont think i can handle another GU4 where everythings broken for over 10days and then a "5% dps" drop from a bard song ends up being a 30% drop in raid dps.   Yeah way to parse that guys.

It's a very strange thing that SOE only listens to the players when it comes down to nerfing others. If they go all black and white on this one, too, like they've done in the past:
- instead of fixing EE, they took it out;
- instead of writing trivial loot code, they make you lose credit upon 1 measly attack from a lowbie;
- instead of finding a proper solution for stealthing in APW they made it impossible.
- etc, etc
then they have finally proven to me that they're unfit to govern this game. If they nerf my already below-par Dragon, then I'm out and not ever coming back to any SOE game.

1.  Got any tips for getting Pain's parser to work?  I tried re downloading IE7 and .net, I can tell you that two other very good parsers are xanadu's and mmosite's

2. There is an exploit, however I hope that the dev's are aware what the exploit is and can fix it without having ANY end buffs stack, because without tuurgin buffs we are back in end hell.

3.  I disagree monk/rogue damage I feel is fine in groups, and right where it should be.  Solo wise we are a melee class, I never expected to be top tier solo.  We solo alright in many instances, the fact that is much harder than other classes I don't think is imbalance I think it is working as intended.

4.  Spike dps is the exact reason why nerfing our FD would kill our class, monk's damage is at least 50-70% spike and without a full aggro wipe we wouldn't even compete.  Casters do not need this full aggro wipe, all they need is a raid buff that reduces spell hate similiarly to melee hate and for a few of their broken deaggro's (if you consider ranged rangers a "caster")

5.  Exactly and when I tried to explain this to cenn he just ignored me, every class not gearing the same way/ having the same playstyle does not equal imbalance.  I have a caster char, and do not think they need to change INT at all other than fix the bug where going over makes it like you have 1 INT.

Other than the sorc and bard lead whining, have you actually talked to any dev Fujitsu that hinted there might be changes?

Lol ive talked to a few devs but they wont comment on anything other then they are trying to figure out why the dps is high and IF its related to a bug

Well gee maybe they should name a new class lead and then they might have some answers.

But no I'm sure cel and the sorc lead have just as much insight it must be a bug!  Or some other serious game flaw, monks actually wanted in raids other than fifteen seconds for a pull, what is this injustice??  This is Everquest after all isn't it!!?

Oh wait...